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Asian alies say US can't defeat China

oztin79

Member
While it's always nice to have your ego stroked, things are not always as they seem. Do we (Marines) do very well with relatively little? Yep, always have, and always will. Are we perfect, movitivated, divine instruments of death and destruction? Arguable, but quite possibly this is the case. Are we perfect? Not just no, but hell no. I won't air too much of our dirty laundry in public, but we jarheads have some issues, just like every other service in this country's military. That's just the way it goes.

More on topic, this non-perfection definitely carries over to the Chinese, but I'll elaborate later, when I'm not completely tanked.

I don't think it's anyone's point that any of the forces could possibly be without flaws.

I'm going to stop replying so I don't become the smart-ass know-it-all of the thread. I have all this pent-up energy as I finish writing a damn termn paper on McCain.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
ghost119 said:
Nice eddie. (I know I have)

I came in a little late, but I am sure that if the Chinese were to attempt to attack us, we would expend our entire BLU-82 and MOAB arsenal on them, and if that doesn't stop them, I am sure the Japanese could give them some warnings or advice on what is going to happen next.




boom. . . . . boomboomboomboom . . . . . silence.
Yeah, cause those C-130s will have no problem getting past the Chinese air defenses. Nevermind all those SA-10s and 20s, we'll just waltz right in.

Brett
 

Cornellianintel

Registered User
I know you weren't trying to take up for China, Gaijin. Both Japan and the U.S. truly do have their own governmental problems and hypocrisies. I just have an [probably unhealthy] obsession with the rise of China in southeast Asia. I tend to agree that economic liberalization and national prosperity are catalysts for political freedom and democratic engagement, but China seems to have found a way to remain largely oppressive while growing their economy at the expense of other nations' fair trade practices. Simply put, I think that they can be a good and powerful ally, but the ball is in their court.

The U.S. made the initial overtures to Red China under Nixon and granted them essentially normalized economic and political relations under Clinton. They have yet to return the favor. I'm as much a free-trade capitalist as anyone, but the much-vaunted "China market" has yet to pay dividends for American companies and the U.S. economy. At any rate, there are many who believe some sort of armed conflict with them is inevitable within the next 20 years or so. We are far more militarily capable and advanced than they are, and we must ensure, per President Bush's national security directive, that no power--including them--is ever capable of challenging us in the way that Russia did.

By the way, while the Marine Corps, like every other branch, has its share of problems and sub-par performers, I think its reputation is well-deserved, justified, and good for the nation as a whole. Yes, the Army is the best at what it does--large-scale exercises and occupations. But as an expeditionary, rapid-deploy force, they are second to none.

Regards,
cac
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
At any rate, there are many who believe some sort of armed conflict with them is inevitable within the next 20 years or so.

Who are these "many" people. This is certainly not the conventional wisdom in government or academia. Hate to bust up an otherwise sensible post, but this is the kind of alarmist thought that sells books, but doesn't make for very good policy.


Anyhow, I'll throw this one out there for you all to chew on while I'm away:

Question? Will our growing interdependence with China serve to prevent conflict with them because the costs of conflict would be too high on both sides to ever let things get to that point? China needs us, as their number one trading partner, to buy their cheap goods to keep their economy going, while the US needs cheap Chinese goods to maintain our economy's level of consumption as well as the Chinese capital investment to buy our T-bills which funds our national debt. Discuss:D

Brett
 

oztin79

Member
Who are these "many" people. This is certainly not the conventional wisdom in government or academia. Hate to bust up an otherwise sensible post, but this is the kind of alarmist thought that sells books, but doesn't make for very good policy.


Anyhow, I'll throw this one out there for you all to chew on while I'm away:

Question? Will our growing interdependence with China serve to prevent conflict with them because the costs of conflict would be too high on both sides to ever let things get to that point? China needs us, as their number one trading partner, to buy their cheap goods to keep their economy going, while the US needs cheap Chinese goods to maintain our economy's level of consumption as well as the Chinese capital investment to buy our T-bills which funds our national debt. Discuss:D

Brett

Excellent thoughts here. I consider myself to be one of those "who believe some sort of armed conflict with [China] is inevitable within the next 20 years" and I think we would probably be defeated unless we can accomplish two colossal initiatives before that conflict erupts. 1) Become energy self-sufficient on something other than oil; 2) Switch our manufacturing dependence away from China, and thereby balancing out an abhorrent trade deficit. I feel that we're far too dependent on antagonistic foreign countries for our basic necessities, which is a serious threat to any economic power.

Ultimately, we're going to have to be able to afford a war with China. Who's positioning themselves for that advantage?
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
I feel that we're far too dependent on antagonistic foreign countries for our basic necessities, which is a serious threat to any economic power.

Ultimately, we're going to have to be able to afford a war with China. Who's positioning themselves for that advantage?
Question for everyone:

Could we spend a lot of money developing some of the more legit and together Latin American states into a series of mini-Chinas ( and thus without national-economic single-mind), and pull the rug out from under Big Dragon? Or would the goal to be to eliminate the cyclical debt-process entirely? Just ideas... destroy or uphold them as you see fit.
 

oztin79

Member
Question for everyone:

Could we spend a lot of money developing some of the more legit and together Latin American states into a series of mini-Chinas ( and thus without national-economic single-mind), and pull the rug out from under Big Dragon? Or would the goal to be to eliminate the cyclical debt-process entirely? Just ideas... destroy or uphold them as you see fit.

Definitely an interesting idea, but it would cement what critics of American foreign policy toward Latin America have been professing since the 50s: That the US deliberately promotes a system of economic dependency with its third-world trading partners through its trade policies aid arrangements.

However, I don't think it would be unethical to distribute US production needs among [legitimately] developing nations in order to diffuse the monoploy we've permitted China to inherit. Maybe a possibility in a progressive and forward-thinking administration.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
The example given was only my most recent experience with an Army O and it just reinforced an unimportant generalization. This guy wouldn’t have been able to step foot in Quantico (and certainly not Pensacola, although he unsurprisingly wore Navy PT shorts throughout training). I'm sure there are lots of great commissioned officers in the Army, but the overall quality of O between Marines and Army is, it seems to me, beyond debate. And the Navy's Officer Corps is anything but inclusive in the same way.

Not to defend the Army or anything but...

I'm sorry, but who are you again, and what makes you qualified to be the judge of that?

Hate to break it to you buddy, but there are a ton of 'tards out there that your gonna have to deal with on an almost daily basis and some great people as well- don't just think any of it is inherent to one particular service.

News flash- if this guy got selected as an 0-5 theres an outside chance he might have some redeeming qualities as an officer. Ya know, some people have the ability to act like normal people when they aren't at their job/in uniform. Its called "the switch", some people can turn it on and off as needed. Some people have it permanently on, and some people can't get it on at all... who knows, he could have just been trying to dumb down his actions to your level in an attempt to make you feel more comfortable dealing with him.

Not to be a dick, but you've got some things to learn... try sampling a bigger pool of people before you write off an entire service as worthless, or label another as superior.
 

oztin79

Member
Not to defend the Army or anything but...

I'm sorry, but who are you again, and what makes you qualified to be the judge of that?

Hate to break it to you buddy, but there are a ton of 'tards out there that your gonna have to deal with on an almost daily basis and some great people as well- don't just think any of it is inherent to one particular service.

News flash- if this guy got selected as an 0-5 theres an outside chance he might have some redeeming qualities as an officer. Ya know, some people have the ability to act like normal people when they aren't at their job/in uniform. Its called "the switch", some people can turn it on and off as needed. Some people have it permanently on, and some people can't get it on at all... who knows, he could have just been trying to dumb down his actions to your level in an attempt to make you feel more comfortable dealing with him.

Not to be a dick, but you've got some things to learn... try sampling a bigger pool of people before you write off an entire service as worthless, or label another as superior.


Anyway, I tried to drop it, but here's my answer to your (Zippy's) post:

1) I thought I stated plainly that my judgment was based on my limited experiences with Army Os, sort of like a lot your judgments. It's how you come to an understanding about something and form an opinion based on inherently flawed observations. Yes, either you do this or you don't have too many opinions.

2) I don't want you worrying about hating to "break" anything to me; we don't really know each other. So feel free to state your opinions without immediate regret or hesitation. If you want to believe that the US forces are created equally, then you're obviously entitled to the belief.

3) In the case of this Army Officer, who is becoming famously defended on AW, I liked the guy enough as a dive buddy, but find the likelihood of his "dumbing down his actions to my level," whatever that means, remote. It's plain and simple: I found him to be sort of silly for a senior commissioned officer and I would've been a little embarrassed if he served under the Dept. of the Navy. The fact that he was about to make O-6 was surprising to me.

I hope you'd join me in admitting that we both have all kinds of things to learn. I'm at peace with that.
 

HueyCobra8151

Well-Known Member
pilot
Why do people always make the assumption that any sort of ground war with China will end in a massive bullet-sponge rush ala Korean War?

China has been progressively increasing their STATED military spending budget by leaps and bounds, they have also decreased their military end-strength substantially.

I am no analyst, and they have brains in the Pentagon that ponder these questions every day I'm sure...but I am just throwing this out there to counter the universal assumption people make about the "human wall" defense of China.

Another thing people tend to forget, is that it is unlikely we would have a strict duality. I mean...what is the purpose of NATO? We like to think that our good friends the world over would respect their end of the agreement.

Oh yeah, and Russia is another factor. They signed an alliance with China a number of years ago that, among other things, recognized Taiwan to be Chinese.

I'm sure regardless of what happens, America will prevail. Time to go watch Team America again..."f**k yeah!"
 

Cornellianintel

Registered User
Hey Brett,

If I in any way implied that there was anything approaching a censensus among historians and analysts that conflict with China was inevitable, allow me to restate. Samual Huntington (sp?) and many who follow the school of thought he outlines in Clash of Civilizations believes that conflict with China is inevitable. While Huntington's theories are far from perfect, and are in many ways a little outlandish, much of what he wrote just after the Cold War seems to be coming to pass. Indeed, nearly every major conflict since the fall of the Berlin wal has been along some ethnic, religious, or cultural line--The wars in the Balkans and the war on terror, notably--and not driven by secular ideology (communism or fascism vs. democracy and liberalism for instance) or strategic necessity. Of course all wars are strategic in a sense, so I'm just generalizing.

Huntington bases his belief in an inevitable *conflict* with China on the idea that they will inevitably seek dominance in SE Asia--a pretty damned good bet--and that we will resist their hegemonic ambitions--also a good bet. The theory of interdependence as a hurdle to armed conflict--I'm sure there's a name for it--has, admittedly, held pretty true. Said interdependence is not, however, a guarantor of peace. It only makes war more difficult and impractical. If grievances become intolerable, treaty obligations are invoked, or national security is at stake, war will likely ensue.
For instance, we are pledged to defend Taiwan from a mainland-Chinese invasion. I believe we would honor that commitment. We are pledged to the democracy and security of Japan and South Korea--I'm sure we would honor those. While it is unlikely that China would overtly attack the Japanese or the Koreans, it is very likely that the Chinese will view the status quo in Asia--including our military presence and Taiwan's relative independence--as detrimental to their regional ambitions. I have a hard time believing that they won't eventually take some action. They don't share our ideas, our values, or our political institutions. Believe it or not, our economic ties only buy us so much security.

Concerning our ability to defeat them....From what I can gather from open-source material, the government is quite confident that any conflict with China, from a skirmish to a full-scale nuclear exchange, would inevitably end in an American victory. Our defense spending outpaces theirs (the figures that we estimate, not that they report) by over 5:1. Much of that is devoted to R&D. It has been widely conceded that the outcome of modern wars will not be a function of men on the ground--especially since we have not real need to occupy China if can cripple them--but of the ability to efficiently project and deploy massive force. China has no blue water Navy, no effective air defenses, and a largely antiquated technological infrastructure. The developed countries of the world have denied them much of our military technology (arms embargo) for nearly 20 years. A position paper circulated by their government itself concludes that no power will be in a position to challenge the United States militarily anytime before the mid-part of the century. Arrogance aside, we have been pouring trillions of dollars into creating the most powerful military in history for nearly 70 years. A decade of sustained economic growth (for China) can't make up for that overnight. If they can keep their economy afloat, which itself is debatable (it must grow at a rate that is likely unsustainable (7%) to keep up with its population), they will still face the energy limitations that we do--they get oil from the same places--and crushing defense budgets.
An alliance with Russia could ease some of their concerns in the energy department, but such a partnership is increasingly unlikely as Russia continues to look west for partnership with European nations.
If the sh!t did hit the fan, we could probably count on the British and the Japanese for a little help. Not bad partners to have in your corner.

Now the EU's a whole 'nother argument...
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
I see what you're getting at...but actually we pulled our ground forces OUT of Japan in order to defeat them.

I, along with the families of the many thousands of ground forces that died defeating Japan, will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Did we need to "take" mainland Japan? No. Please recall, though, that our ground forces did not have to defeat the Japanese on the mainland primarily because our forces defeated the Japanese so soundly throughout the rest of her empire. Even after winning in Okinawa, could we have "taken" the mainland? Of course. However, we (thankfully) found a way to avoid the loss of any more American lives.

Let's admit it, the Army's like public school with cammies on. Let's admit it, the Army's like public school with cammies on. Now the Marines on the other hand...we'll the article makes the point.

As has been stated previously, the Army and Marines are apples and oranges. The Army is very, very good at what they do. (If they weren't, I'm sure the commies on the Korean peninsula would have made their move sometime over the past half century.) And they are only getting better.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Hey Brett,

If I in any way implied that there was anything approaching a censensus among historians and analysts that conflict with China was inevitable, allow me to restate. Samual Huntington (sp?) and many who follow the school of thought he outlines in Clash of Civilizations believes that conflict with China is inevitable.

Another good post. You'll make someone a fine spy (tactics Dept b!tch boy ;) ) one day. I'm all too familiar w/ Huntington. While interesting, the guy's a maverick and his "clash" concepts are almost universally discounted by people in my circles (my circles meaning a bunch of PhDs and 50 pound heads) from both sides of the political spectrum.

Alright folks. I've got a plane to catch - happy holidays to all!

Brett
 
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