Only P-3's can . . . .
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ASW without puke?! Not in my Navy!!
- Thread starter picklesuit
- Start date
Lack of MAD on the P-8?Only P-3's can . . . .
I'd say "Yes*"...having been the guy under the layer.
Yep, P-8 won't have MAD, but that has nothing to do with the ability to track a submarine above or below the thermocline layer. That has to do with where a hydrophone is positioned in relation to the layer and submarine.
It's tough to explain without getting into stuff we really shouldn't be talking about here. But to boil it down, it's all energy. Sometimes energy put out by a sensor isn't any stronger than the energy being put out by the contact. Sometimes it's not worth the effort to put out that energy from the sensor and instead it's better to let the contact do the work and just listen.
No doubt an upgrade, but what about passive systems? In the near future, it's still just -53s with their upgraded alphabet soup that CommodoreMid mentioned, so I was curious if the processing was THAT much better. Again, I understand if that can't be answered.
Obviously the Vikings are gone, but a typical loadout for a CSG Romeo det is one shooter and one dipper (or some similar combo). The Romeos that are on the carrier (that replace both the H-3 and the legacy LAMPS assets as well as the S-3) will have a dipper in the air every day. I'm sure folks were better in your day because, like you said, you didn't just practice it, you did it operationally, but as scholbubba said, with a good crew, the Romeo is pretty damn impressive with what it can do on the ASW front, especially if there are two of them.
Well, that is certainly a factor, I was just being a bit parochial towards my last platform !
Anecdotal from several friends who are in Jax...am I wrong?
No pickle you're not wrong... you're just an asshole!
As to the atrophy of ASW skills ... that's going to happen when you don't have someone like the USSR to chase after. PRC is no 1980s Soviet Union. So while ASW is still supposed to be our bread and butter, we do it a whole lot less than one might expect.
In respect to the P-8A... this thing is a baby. The P-3C came out in the 70s and has gone through 4 or 5 major upgrades. CommodoreMid would have a better handle on things being a P-8 NFO already, but we are getting daily leaks about P-8 as we prepare for transition early next year. And from what we are being told P-8 is performing well ONSTA high and low, and high altitude ASW is a future capability not a present capability. I think the Navy did the right thing by looking ahead. Buy the airplane now, before the wings fall off the P-3s, add refuel/high alt ASW/other stuff as the tech matures.
Revamping the P-3 and calling it the P-7 would have been great if we were expecting the same things out of the next 30 years, but times (as always) are a changin'. The P-8 provides more than just an updated ASW capability, and more than just an avenue for the airlines... though I fully expect VP Navy-to-SouthWest Airlines transitions to be more common in the future.
As to the atrophy of ASW skills ... that's going to happen when you don't have someone like the USSR to chase after. PRC is no 1980s Soviet Union. So while ASW is still supposed to be our bread and butter, we do it a whole lot less than one might expect.
In respect to the P-8A... this thing is a baby. The P-3C came out in the 70s and has gone through 4 or 5 major upgrades. CommodoreMid would have a better handle on things being a P-8 NFO already, but we are getting daily leaks about P-8 as we prepare for transition early next year. And from what we are being told P-8 is performing well ONSTA high and low, and high altitude ASW is a future capability not a present capability. I think the Navy did the right thing by looking ahead. Buy the airplane now, before the wings fall off the P-3s, add refuel/high alt ASW/other stuff as the tech matures.
Revamping the P-3 and calling it the P-7 would have been great if we were expecting the same things out of the next 30 years, but times (as always) are a changin'. The P-8 provides more than just an updated ASW capability, and more than just an avenue for the airlines... though I fully expect VP Navy-to-SouthWest Airlines transitions to be more common in the future.
It's funny to still hear the term atrophy used when talking about our ASW capabilities. Sure, I guess it applies when we're talking about our Navy as a whole, but I'm guessing that nobody flying in the VP community today was around in the days when ASW was what you actually did on deployment. Can a skill you never really had become atrophied? It would be interesting to look at what ASW related training goes into the metrics of your SORTS report today vs. whatever the metrics were circa 1987.
Can we do an "Oprah Moment" here and be PURR-FECTLY honest? ASW will remain an atrophied skill-set until such time as there is/are one or more US-flagged, grey-hull "flaming datums" somewhere. Then we'll all have a "come to Jesus" moment...
Until then, overland ISR and all else that the P-3s and P-8s (and might I also add...BAMS UAV?) can and will do will be devoted to that. COCOMs call the shots with these HD/LD assets, and very few give a crap about water.
Just my $.02.
Just to get ahead of the curve here...I admit that I don't know shit from Shinola about ASW. But I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday...
For the VP guys, perhaps, but they're not the only ASW game in town, and other players (again, depending on coast/AOR) still practice it. As good as during the Cold War? Probably not, but all is not lost.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
I can't say how "good" my crew was vs Cold War guys, but we trained for ASW pretty damn hard in the 03-07 timeframe in HSL.
I was fairly confident that I could get the best possible results given a decent datum.
I was fairly confident that I could get the best possible results given a decent datum.
ASW skills definitely vary by squadron based on where they deploy. I'd bet every JO in my squadron would agree that we are infinitely better at ASW now than we were a year ago given our recent 7th fleet deployment vice the tri-site we did before. That's not a knock on the guys who have solely done the 5th fleet thing, it's just that ASW is use it or lose it.
Absent the long-range (legacy P-3...future P-8 guys). you're all relegating it to the "Charlie's inside the wire!" construct. Too little...and too late. It's a "layered defense", yes? Who's doing the "outer layer"?
Yeah, where was that datum coming from? (To reiterate....I don't know shit from Shinola aboutASW....)