Aviator progression in the Navy

[Uncle Fester]

I understand the points about career progression, but ever think maybe we've gone too far in the direction of valuing "well rounded career progression" over tactical acumen? And while I'm in no danger of ever being a CO, if I were, I'd rather have a guy with a variety of flying experience under his belt than a ready room of guys who jockeyed PowerPoint on a staff somewhere.

Yes, there's value in staff tours, and yes, there's value in having aviators on those staffs. But I think the game shouldn't be merely "community with the most admirals, wins".

 

[bert]

I guess this is the core of our disagreement. The disassociated is not designed to make you a better aviator, it's to make you a better Navy Officer.

No, it is designed to put bodies in billets that need to be filled. Any actual professional growth is a bonus.

 

[Gatordev]

The cross pollination I think would be a good thing, as someone who flew two very distinct fleet platforms. (SH-60Bs as a JO, E-2Cs as a SuperJO)

Let's call it what it was. You weren't a Super JO, you were a second-tour JO. Your hold up in your sequel to flight school doesn't make it a Super JO tour.

I was the SWO and QAO, and doing outstanding in both within 12 months of checkin. I made CAPC/PC faster than community norm, despite the retarded rules they put on it (could not go up for CAPC, until the guys who checked in even a day ahead of you had a shot, regarless of how good you are or bad they were)

Honest question, and I'm not trying to bust yours or anyone else's balls... Is SWO really considered a breakout collateral in the E-2 community?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Any Marines want to chime in on this? My impression from the Marines I instructed with at P'cola was that switching between platforms during a career is somewhat routine - I do know that all but one of them who are still flying, are flying something different from their first platform.

 

[Warner]

Helo guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a pilot has 24 months from the arrival to their fleet squadron to become qualified as aircraft commander (PC in your terms I believe). From an hours standpoint, maybe not much different but it seems that the 2 year timeline is a lot quicker then the 3-5 year timeframe the Army goes through.

Some confusion here, I think. The 3-5 years is total time in service, not time with your first unit. I had well over 2 years total time in service when I left flight school for my unit (due to some long waiting periods between phases), and 3 1/2 years before I became a flight company platoon leader and started flying more than once every couple of weeks (due to being initially assigned to a maintenance unit). Warrant officers, of course, will be assigned to a flight company immediately but they can spend a long time in flight school too. I would say it is normal for an Army aviator to make PC within 12-24 months of getting to that point.

 

[helolumpy]

Some confusion here, I think. The 3-5 years is total time in service, not time with your first unit. I had well over 2 years total time in service when I left flight school for my unit (due to some long waiting periods between phases), and 3 1/2 years before I became a flight company platoon leader and started flying more than once every couple of weeks (due to being initially assigned to a maintenance unit). Warrant officers, of course, will be assigned to a flight company immediately but they can spend a long time in flight school too. I would say it is normal for an Army aviator to make PC within 12-24 months of getting to that point.

Those time lines pretty much synch up with a typical Naval Aviation.
18-24 months to Wings (from commission)
6-10 months for the RAG
12-24 months in first squadron until HAC designation.

 

[Pags]

3710 give an individual 24 months to make Aircraft Commander (HAC). After 24 months the individual is supposed to go to a FNAEB.
Most folks in my experience can make HAC in an Airwing squadron in 12-16 months.
For the expeditionary folks, I think it might be shorter. I have heard that you won't deploy until your an 2P so you will have about 6-9 months to make it from when you check into the squadron. In an Airwing squadron, I've seen it go longer since we don't self-impose the 2P requirement on folks for a long cruise.

12-15mo was fleet average for HSC EXP guys to make HAC. We could deploy guys PQMs to our Bahrain det because we still met the readiness requirements from guys who were already there. For USNS/LHD dets, most guys would make 2P in the work ups.

 

[MasterBates]

Let's call it what it was. You weren't a Super JO, you were a second-tour JO. Your hold up in your sequel to flight school doesn't make it a Super JO tour. Honest question, and I'm not trying to bust yours or anyone else's balls... Is SWO really considered a breakout collateral in the E-2 community?

Can only speak as to what my front office called it. They called me a SuperJO based on timing. (remember, while I did get a 8 month delay in in Krock, I was a LT less than a year when I left HSL-42). I was senior to our WTIs in terms of time in grade, but only by a few months.

My CO who was the XO when I checked in, and wrote the last three FITREPs that counted (I went on terminal right after the COC) held it in importance, and I did way more as a VAW SWO than a HSL SWO. Probably because my CO was a Shoe at heart (self admitted) and LOVED instructions, training, etc far more than any HSL or VAW CO I had.

Just calling myself what they called me.

 

[squorch2]

What is there to do as SWO?

- Route watchbill to XO
- Rewrite/reroute watchbill as dets change
- Send menacing emails as people don't sign up for next watchbill
- ???
- Profit!

 

[MasterBates]

Here is what I did as SWO
-Write 50 page instruction from scratch on SWO duties at XO direction
-Rewrite the emergency action plans for about, oh, everything
-Monthly and weekly training on obscure stuff
-What's a DET? (VAW squadron)
-Be the arbiter of all things JOPA, since everyone hates you.
-Stand more SDO than anyone else

I'm sure there is more, but Bitter JO IIPA from Battle Phrog Brewery did a pretty good job of erasing my VAW tour from memory.

 

[Gatordev]

Depending on the squadron and/or the CO, SWO can be a pain in the ass, so I'm not saying it doesn't consume some time, I've just never heard it considered as a marketable collateral, that's why I asked.

ETA...you posted before I did, so...

-Stand more SDO than anyone else

Well there's your problem. That's SWO fail number one.

 

[MasterBates]

Yeah. That was the XO's direction. I needed to "Set the standard" because I was the only JO who knew how to stand a proper watch or some bullshit like that.

I will admit. The watchstanding was pretty dicked up when I got there. Mostly because the squadron was coming out of being the E-2 squadron without a CAG (AKA "National Guard Bluetails")

 

[squorch2]

Jebus.

Isn't the pre-mishap plan the ASO's baby? Ground stuff usually boils down to "call this list of people, draft and release this message." How does that go 50 pages?

 

[MasterBates]

Making coffee had a formal procedure.

Unlocking the squadron has a specified sequence

Briefing the CO has a different specified sequence than the XO

There is a formal written procedure for handing off duty on the boat in port, a separate one for underway no fly, another for underway fly, and fly/nofly at home. With an addendum if a "Non Aviator" is on duty, and how it differs.

Yes. It was painful to write.

 

[SynixMan]

So, looking back, was burning the bridge and leaving HSL worth it? Not trying to be sarcastic, but it seems your transition experience didn't go well.