Charlie times and fuel planning

[phrogdriver]

After my last deployment I decided that discussing timliness and professionalism with my rotary wing brethren is like trying to teach a pig to whistle.

Timeliness, fine. Let's keep the discussion on that. Unless we want to open the can, okay the 55-gal drum, of f/w v. r/w animosity up and spill it around the forum, leave professionalism as a whole out of it. I hope you meant that just in regards to the timeliness issue, because if you want me to start talking about "stupid Harrier tricks," I'll be here all night.

As far as timeliness goes, I'll confess that helos are not as good at it as f/w. BUT, look at the mission, especially for the battle taxi (46) and battle bus (53). I challenge you to go to 3 different ships, all of which have different deck crews, different combat cargos, etc., etc., and come up with an accurate plan to move multiple runs between each, while still making each charlie time. Oh, by the way, the LSD didn't start getting ready for flight quarters until I passed abeam the ship, and the AAV part I'm picking up is still in the forward V. Plus, their fuel hose is about as good as an eyedropper. Just leave, right? Try that and see what it gets ya.

There is no excuse for putzing around in the GCA pattern and being late, and I'll admit, there are probably more than a couple of helos who've done just that. That's not the problem, though. When you're the taxi, you have to wait for a fare. It's a different thing than planning A to B, drop a bomb, then B to A, or even A to B with X time on station, then B to A.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Timeliness, fine. Let's keep the discussion on that. Unless we want to open the can, okay the 55-gal drum, of f/w v. r/w animosity up and spill it around the forum, leave professionalism as a whole out of it. I hope you meant that just in regards to the timeliness issue, because if you want me to start talking about "stupid Harrier tricks," I'll be here all night.

Actually, I did mean it in regards to timeliness. Not a great choice of words in terms of clarity.

If you want to compare stories about which community is more retarded around the boat, then be my guest. I could probably only provide a few hundred phrog examples tonight, but I'll remember more later after electro-shock therapy wears off.

As far as timeliness goes, I'll confess that helos are not as good at it as f/w. BUT, look at the mission, especially for the battle taxi (46) and battle bus (53). I challenge you to go to 3 different ships, all of which have different deck crews, different combat cargos, etc., etc., and come up with an accurate plan to move multiple runs between each, while still making each charlie time. Oh, by the way, the LSD didn't start getting ready for flight quarters until I passed abeam the ship, and the AAV part I'm picking up is still in the forward V.

Again, these are examples of how the other various entities (decks, boats, the much hated Phibron, etc.) screw us all. I think we all agree on that.

Plus, their fuel hose is about as good as an eyedropper. Just leave, right? Try that and see what it gets ya.

Yes. Just leave. As long as you have the fuel to do it safely, then execute the airplan and let the air department fall on their face for scheduling (or whoever dicked the dog to make you late).

There is no excuse for putzing around in the GCA pattern and being late, and I'll admit, there are probably more than a couple of helos who've done just that. That's not the problem, though. When you're the taxi, you have to wait for a fare.

Unless it's a combat or contingency lift (i.e. regular PMC), you don't have to wait. Let the folks responsible deal with the consequences. As former AirOs, you and I both know what that means.

As far as what we as aircrew can do, I'd settle for being up and ready on time. That would be fantastic. My blood boils when I am ready to break down and taxi and the helos spotted for the launch before me are not only late walking, but shuffling out to their aircraft like lethargic, mouth-breathing cretins. Then, when they're already late, they ask for a box lunch.

It's a different thing than planning A to B, drop a bomb, then B to A, or even A to B with X time on station, then B to A.

Yes, quite.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Yes. Just leave. As long as you have the fuel to do it safely, then execute the airplan and let the air department fall on their face for scheduling (or whoever dicked the dog to make you late). Unless it's a combat or contingency lift (i.e. regular PMC), you don't have to wait. Let the folks responsible deal with the consequences. As former AirOs, you and I both know what that means.

Umm, I think that this statement was directed at me - since I was the AirO phrog guy... phrogdriver (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) hasn't ever been a FAC that I know of. Great in theory, horrible in practice if your CO doesn't back you up. That's what the misery of some squadrons are like. I'm sure you know a CO that's willing to throw his aircrew downriver to make himself look good.

My blood boils when I am ready to break down and taxi and the helos spotted for the launch before me are not only late walking, but shuffling out to their aircraft like lethargic, mouth-breathing cretins. Then, when they're already late, they ask for a box lunch.

You blood should boil for that. We generally manned up 30 minutes prior to launch, and I personally don't remember ever being late to a man-up. Did I ever fuck the Harriers' launch time up? Yup. Had to roll to a back up (and our deck was less than stellar), but before I went off the APU - the CO had made it a point to be in the tower with the flower and was yelling at me about how darned important it was that I launch and go get this gasket or something else that seemed trivial to me.

Never asked for a box lunch. The ones on our boat sucked so bad, I would have rather eaten an MRE.

 

[Nose]

Now you have another $12 fine for arguing with paddles. See? I was right.

Rep.

Good to see Paddles maintaining control. Even if you STOVL guys do sit in the boss' lap when you "wave".

Recommend $12 fine be paid in scotch, but that's just me.

 

[MasterBates]

Okay, I am well versed in what a "RAST LSO" does (was one).

I am somewhat familiar with a "Normal LSO" (yelling at studs seems to be prime function)

What doe a "STOVL LSO" do for the Harrier bubba?

 

[Harrier Dude]

Umm, I think that this statement was directed at me - since I was the AirO phrog guy... phrogdriver (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) hasn't ever been a FAC that I know of.

Actually, I thought you both were. My bad.

Great in theory, horrible in practice if your CO doesn't back you up. That's what the misery of some squadrons are like. I'm sure you know a CO that's willing to throw his aircrew downriver to make himself look good.

If our CO doesn't back us up, then we have bigger problems. And yes, I'm quite familiar with that problem.

Did I ever fuck the Harriers' launch time up? Yup. Had to roll to a back up (and our deck was less than stellar), but before I went off the APU - the CO had made it a point to be in the tower with the flower and was yelling at me about how darned important it was that I launch and go get this gasket or something else that seemed trivial to me.

Rolling to a backup isn't a problem as long as the priority event makes it out. Things do break, but if they were that much of a priority, why not have a spinning backup?

Never asked for a box lunch. The ones on our boat sucked so bad, I would have rather eaten an MRE.

Concur. I've only asked for them to be a smartass, and even then over paddles. freq.

 

[Lawman]

What doe a "STOVL LSO" do for the Harrier bubba?

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132680

 

[bert]

As the only Navy guy weighing in on this, I'll pick my battles carefully. I can't defend "the boat" as a whole - to many of you have seen to many egregious offenses to want to hear the "it isn't how well the bear dances, it is that it dances at all" defense.

Part of the problem in looking for blame is that each ARG (errr... ESG) brings it's own unique failure modes and internal dysfunctions to the table, so unless you were on the same cruise we are unlikely to come to any agreement.

So instead I'll threadjack with one of my favorite sea stories where we are all a little guilty....

Beautiful day, no operations, just random FCF and training in the Gator Box off of Okinawa. I was the SAR bird but got roped into doing some PMC because the Marine phrog that was supposed to do it had been retasked (no idea by who) and had gone off the grid. I was still within 10 miles so no problem. The harriers had launched and gone away and weren't due back for another 20 min when I landed on the aft most spot on the Wood to drop off whatever crap I had picked up. All the spots were occupied with FCF birds, with the aft ones trying get off before the boss stuffed them for the jet's recovery. I was single radio and switched to flower to find out what they wanted next while my 2P went inside to drop off some airplan changes (our favorite code word for dropping a deuce). All of a sudden the deck guys rushed in and broke me down and the fuelies broke off and hurried away. I switched to tower in time to hear the Boss screaming at me to get off the deck. Apparently a nugget harrier type called in 5 miles out with a claimed 1 minute of gas. Off I went, fervently hoping the guy would recover so I wouldn't have to explain why the SAR bird didn't have a rescue swimmer or a co-pilot.

Luckily, the guy had more than a minute of gas and made it safely. Now (finally) we get to the funny part of the story. Nobody ever realized I had launched without my co-pilot. Even when I landed (on spot 5 next to the tower), flying from the left seat with the right seat empty, nobody ever noticed I had been flying around without my copilot for the last ten minutes. And the real topper to this? The mini-boss crapped on me for calling "charlie, left seat" for a spot behind a turning snake, because "you know we can't land you left seat behind a tail rotor. Come on, you can't waste our time like that." What a tool - and a perfect summary for the amphib cruising experience.

(For those who are curious, the story we were told is that the harrier supposedly "lost track of his gas" while doing air to air and decided coming back to the boat early was better than getting in trouble for going to Kadena without a PPR. Apparently that provoked a heavy beating from the CO and a heavier fine from the LSO.)

 

[Pags]

Yes. Just leave. As long as you have the fuel to do it safely, then execute the airplan and let the air department fall on their face for scheduling (or whoever dicked the dog to make you late).

Unless the boat holds you hostage...

 

[Harrier Dude]

Wow. That's an awesome story. I agree that buffoonery has many sources and that unless you can reference a common cruise, it's hard to find a reference point.

I wasn't on that cruise, but historiclly the 31st MEU is the most severely retarded rider on our short little bus of L-class aviation.

Just using you example though for some armchair quarterbacking, the tower was truly hosed up, to include the LSO. Clearly, the main part of the blame belongs to the Harrier pilot who failed to follow his fuel ladder. Unacceptable. But, I would have been jumping up and down in the tower if the Boss had clobbered my two primary spots (7 1/2 and 9) 20 minutes prior to Charlie. What if one of them couldn't take off/shut down/fold/stuff in time?

I am absolutley amazed that you launched solo. Very bold move. If we were green water (which you evidently were) the right call was to divert. You don't need a PPR for that. If the pilots had called paddles and let them know what they had done (or rather failed to do) this could have been worked out far more safely. Communication is key.

Anyway, it sounds like you did a great job with what you had. You are probably the only living person who has soloed a phrog.

Oh, and I know what Harrier squadron (det) you floated with. I'm not tremendously surprised.

 

[bert]

As a one-time air dept guy I guess I look at it from a slightly different perspective. The tower did the best they could with the turd they got. Regardless of how much fuel the guy really had, he was claiming 1 minute so they had to act like that was true. 7 had actually broken down already, and I was an up bird (and the SAR aircraft to boot) so they ought to have been ok, and I would have (and did) do the same thing. I always had 10 minutes as my clear the deck time.

I actually should have waited 30 sec to get my swimmer in from the island, but I got caught up in the rush and figured I ought to boogie. In retrospect, I could have waited until the harrier was abeam before getting off without impacting him, and should have. (Not that I ought to have done a SAR without a co-pilot, but I could have).

The problem with ACE's on the 31st MEU was that there never seemed to be a middle ground. The different airframe dets were either completely locked on and squared away or were coming straight from the big-top. You never had the middle ground of just decent, competent guys.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I wasn't on that cruise, but historiclly the 31st MEU is the most severely retarded rider on our short little bus of L-class aviation.

Actually, I think they have a mini-van over on the rock...

Clearly, the main part of the blame belongs to the Harrier pilot who failed to follow his fuel ladder. Unacceptable.

Wait a sec... I thought Phrog guys were the only ones that came back early with not enough gas?!?

But, I would have been jumping up and down in the tower if the Boss had clobbered my two primary spots (7 1/2 and 9) 20 minutes prior to Charlie. What if one of them couldn't take off/shut down/fold/stuff in time?

Agreed. Especially since you're only talking about two spots. Why I'm so bitter and jaded was because on my boat (which I've since heard from many people didn't have a very good reputation on the pier either), all SIX spots had to be clear to launch OR recover. Launch makes sense, recovery though? To throw in another sea story where the Phrog pilot could be interpreted as the problem:

We were on Spot 4, had just done our ground IPS and the numbers were good for us to move to the hover. Call for the break down and launch, and as soon as I pulled pitch I knew something was wrong because the old girl was yawing back and forth and bouncing up and down like she was tearing herself apart. Not comfortable by any stretch of the imagination. But, we had to get the hover numbers in order to find out what needed to be done. Off to spot 10 we go. After what seemed like an eternity (probably closer to 10 minutes), we get our numbers to find we have a 4 inch spread. I had never seen or heard of a 4 inch spread, worst I had ever seen was maybe 1 - 1 1/2 inches. Starboard side, call in position for the break - Harriers were recovering early, Boss directs us to the D. Switch over to tower and say "Could you politely inform the Boss that we have a 4 inch spread and would like to land ASAP." As soon as we released the trigger, Boss comes up and says "Cleared to cross the bow, charlie spot 2." Landed and 5 minutes later, so did the Harriers. Big issue? Not really, but because of the ship's rules about all six spots having to be empty, the Phrog guy fucked it up. However, I didn't want to hang out in the D waiting to see just how long these vibrations would keep up...

That bird actually turned into our problem child. After swapping out heads, blades, flying blades ashore to weigh them, and continually trying to test it up - she was finally FMC... 15 hours before Phase.

Anyway, it sounds like you did a great job with what you had. You are probably the only living person who has soloed a phrog.

I agree wholeheartedly, although as an NSI - I soloed almost every night

 

[Harrier Dude]

Why I'm so bitter and jaded was because on my boat (which I've since heard from many people didn't have a very good reputation on the pier either), all SIX spots had to be clear to launch OR recover. Launch makes sense, recovery though?

That's retarded. A complete waste of assets. Was this East Coast? If so, I could take three guesses on which boat it was, but I'd only need one. Been there, hated them.

Starboard side, call in position for the break - Harriers were recovering early, Boss directs us to the D.

Do you mean that they just showed up, out of the blue, early? There was no prior coordination? No plausible reason (wx, system failure)? They just "showed up"?

The reason I ask is that I have never seen that. I've floated on both coasts and Japan. 4 of 7 LHDs. I've worked on most of the others (plus LHAs) for short periods. I've seen people fuck it away and be late, but never early. That's just too easy to fix (spin it).

Then again, while I've seen a lot, I certainly haven't seen everything.

We had a Boss on Essex that was such a retard that every single recovery he would accuse the Harriers of being early when they called the initial. Our Charlie time is when we cross the deck edge. Three minutes prior to that is when you are going to be at the inital (or at least make the call, keep your knots up, and break at the bow). When a guy calls the initial at 1257 for a 1300 C, he's right on time. Not early.

This guy could never quite grasp that concept. Pigs to whistle....:icon_rage

 

[Gatordev]

Anyway, it sounds like you did a great job with what you had. You are probably the only living person who has soloed a phrog.

This is actually a pretty common HAC board question. 2P goes in to take care of admin, AW/crewman is helping fuel/taking care of admin. Someone calls emergency and needs to land in the next 2 minutes. What do you, do, hotshot, what do you do...?

There's not necessarily a wrong answer, depending on the environment, and the questions I heard were more tailored to the CV, but if Harriers are aboard, the L-class is another example of when it could be an issue.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Has anybody else ever actually done this?