I know the Army and I believe the Air Force have gone this route in the past, however I don't think the civilian IPs instructed in all phases. Having had some good friends who went through Army training they didn't think badly of the civilian IPs. It was my understanding that the contract instructors were former military pilots.
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Civilian Instructor Pilots at CNATRA
- Thread starter Frumby
- Start date
Very true Brett. Some of my best instructors for 'techniques' were the veteran, but civilian, instructors in the sims, including two former carrier CO's and many squadron CO's. You can't beat 100o's of hours experience in airplanes, no matter what they flew for pure airmanship. It still comes back to (1) aviate, navigate, communicate, (2) keep the airplane trimmed in balanced flight, (3) know your personal limitations and heed them, and (4) aviate, navigate and communicate (yes, this is the most important).
^^ Don't forget about 'Fornicate.'
Brett
Aw, you're right, I forgot one of the 'ate' sisters. 10 points for the catch.
The mil-to-civ transition for maintainers in the VT's in the late '80's did just that for the enlisted folks. Overnight we wiped out over 1500 shore billets.
I know this idea had been discussed in CNATRA about 2 years ago. I think a couple civ were actually hired to fly T-34C in Corpus under the maintenance contract. I believe the general feeling in the CNATRA staff not long after was that it wasn't such a great idea.
I personally think it is a bad idea for so many reasons. But I've been pretty much against privatization for a long time. Todays Washington Post cited a memo written by the Walter Reed garrison commander, Col Peter Garibaldi, in which he warned of problems due to staff shortages brought on by privatization. That's just the most public example of where it isn't working out as well as promised.
That being said, I think I'd want to be one of the first to drop a resume with the winning contractor if CNATRA does privatize IP jobs.
I personally think it is a bad idea for so many reasons. But I've been pretty much against privatization for a long time. Todays Washington Post cited a memo written by the Walter Reed garrison commander, Col Peter Garibaldi, in which he warned of problems due to staff shortages brought on by privatization. That's just the most public example of where it isn't working out as well as promised.
That being said, I think I'd want to be one of the first to drop a resume with the winning contractor if CNATRA does privatize IP jobs.
Civilians taking the shore billets. Flying warrants taking the sea billets....... Going to be interesting to see how this thing plays out (if it does).
Interesting that this rumor is out there. During a Q&A session a couple of weeks ago, CNATRA himself specifically said that he did not want to go this route. The question was brought about by a helo instructor who said that he was worn out and was asking if civilians could be brought in to provide some relief. CNATRA said specifically that there was no shortage of pilots needing shore tours and that he did not see this happening in the VT squadrons training our pilots.
As for the idea itself, it would be a sound financial decision, at least in the short term. I think as someone said above, it would be a good idea to augment some of the billets with civilians, but to replace all of them would just eliminate too many flying billets period, nevermind shore duty billets. I think the civilian sim instructors are OK, but those guys are out of touch from the students and what is happening in the fleet. Besides, in the NFO tracom, the civilian pilots are also flying with military IP's, it wouldn't be that way training pilots.
As for the idea itself, it would be a sound financial decision, at least in the short term. I think as someone said above, it would be a good idea to augment some of the billets with civilians, but to replace all of them would just eliminate too many flying billets period, nevermind shore duty billets. I think the civilian sim instructors are OK, but those guys are out of touch from the students and what is happening in the fleet. Besides, in the NFO tracom, the civilian pilots are also flying with military IP's, it wouldn't be that way training pilots.
I don't think someone is really thinking this through. What a deal for someone thinking of leaving the service who wants to build flight time and get paid decent wages while waiting for the airlines to hire, or who wants a source of income and flight time while they're playing the entrepreneurial game.
It also kills a lot of SELRES billets, and the Naval Reserve has a very powerful lobbying arm, so it'll be interesting to see what they bring to bear.
Worse, they have a civ-mil mix and keep the SELRES in it. Talk about a reason to leave. Fly as a civilian most of the time and then fly four days a month as a SELRES. Most SELRES have to travel to their assigned unit; here you simply change your name tag from Joe Civilian to Joe Reservist. Great flying; no sea duty; building retirement points; civilian benefits (medical, dental, etc.).
I agree, that's a downfall if this were to actually happen. Unless the civilians were to simply supplement the IP's. It's my understanding that the VT's aren't exactly manned accordingly.
Fleet guys to bring that little extra up to date experience but being in the FITU for just a few weeks has shown that some IP's have been out of the fleet for a long, long time. Two that I know of, 7 and 8 years respectively. They've known nothing but primary training in T-34's. At least in primary, there isn't much of a need for fleet experienced pilots. The student just needs to learn the basics and carry on to the next step.
Brett said:
Brett - thank you for your opinion and perhaps it was different when you went through or maybe your experience was just different. While I wasn't going there you did bring up a valuable point about the impact instructors make on selection choices by students.
TRACOM includes not only the primary squadrons but also the advanced squadrons and yes Helo instructors may not be able to provide much useful advice to TACAIR guys the instructors in Advanced certainly provide very vital real world application of the information being learned. Everyone stresses that there is no substitute for experience and I don't disagree but one valuable tool to get that experience quicker is to be exposed to the lessons that the previous generation of pilots have learned. I can recall hundreds of conversations with instructors (both VTs and HTs) where recent fleet knowledge and experiences not only made the material easier to learn but also exposed me to current real world situations for consideration and discussion. I recall discussing flight ops in Iraq with a LtCol, what is happening right now and the implications on Helo tactics in the coming years.
On the other hand, all the experiences related to me by civilian sim instructors are Vietnam era or earlier. While they provide a great deal of wisdom and amusement, it really doesn't help me with what I can expect to see, and certainly not when one considers the advancement in NVD tech. I think E6b more concisely states this point.
Aside from all these reasons, instructors in the training command provide further examples of professionalism and leadership in the aviation community and provide valuable professional development for young studs.
If CNATRA takes on civ flt instructors, and I have my doubts they will, you assume they'll be the same vintage as the sim instructors. My guess is the majority will be Iraq vets.
I wonder if they would encounter the same standardization problems that they have with the civilian sim instructors? I have never really given much thought to where that difference comes from but any stud here will tell you that sims can be...adventures...as a result.