CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz

[nodropinufaka]

I'll agree with the Iraq sentiment (which is why I specifically didn't mention it) but with the Taliban protecting him in Afghanistan there's little to no chance we would have ever come close to sniffing him. It would have also given him plenty of opportunity and manpower to mount another attack.

I’ll agree that Afghanistan ground fighting was going to happen in the beginning. Like when Jawbreaker 6 touched down right after 9/11 and then the SF Teams.

My issue is when they turned to an occupying force trying to input a democracy and stayed 18 years too long.

 

[Jim123]

Recognize that half the Iraq debacle was because we didn't establish an occupation doctrine (that's partly the Army's fault for focusing so much on high end conflict but it's also the generation of whiz kids in W's administration for falling for wishful thinking).

That's aside from the fundamental questions of whether we should have gone in there or not and whose fault that decision was.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Recognize that half the Iraq debacle was because we didn't establish an occupation doctrine (that's partly the Army's fault for focusing so much on high end conflict but it's also the generation of whiz kids in W's administration for falling for wishful thinking).

That's aside from the fundamental questions of whether we should have gone in there or not and whose fault that decision was.

That’s essentially what I’m referring to when I talk about bad leadership in senior officer ranks getting people killed.

The war was voted on by the AUMF and passed and the Army and flag leadership messed up bad.

 

[squorch2]

The military does not "prey" on the poor (regardless of race) any more than Walmart, Dollar General, Jack in the Box, the buy here pay here car lot, or any other minimum wage job or super discount retail operation found in more economically distressed areas.

This is not the great comeback you think it is.

 

[wink]

This is not the great comeback you think it is.

To you. But one has to accept your view to think similarly. I just don't. And neither do most of the people reading this threat. Thanks for sharing though.

 

[wink]

My issue is when they turned to an occupying force trying to input a democracy and stayed 18 years too long.

You mean like we did in Japan and Germany. I am glad we made the investment there. One can critique the execution, but breaking shit and walking away is not the way America usually does business.

 

[nodropinufaka]

You mean like we did in Japan and Germany. I am glad we made the investment there. One can critique the execution, but breaking shit and walking away is not the way America usually does business.

I don’t recall the United States occupying Germany or Japan for 20 years while executing an extremely poorly planned out Counter Insurgency Operation and engaged in asymmetric warfare.

Instead we broke it over a 20 year span and then walked away. arguably worst.

What gains is there for having a presence in Afghanistan?

 

[jtmedli]

Is that 1 percent an acceptable risk?

The Army and Marines have a huge amount of positions that are dangerous and are overseas. It’s not like the Navy.

Having been a safety officer, yes. It is. Sailors soldiers, marines, guardians, whatever... kill themselves and kill other people/civilians way more than they die in military shit. If anything, dependent upon your background, joining the military is more likely to save your life than end it.

As it pertains to "Army and Marines" (and the obvious allusion to Afghanistan and Iraq), we've lost more young men and women to the streets of Chicago here in the US since 9/11/2001 than we have to the streets of Kabul.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Having been a safety officer, yes. It is. Sailors soldiers, marines, guardians, whatever... kill themselves and kill other people/civilians way more than they die in military shit. If anything, dependent upon your background, joining the military is more likely to save your life than end it.

As it pertains to "Army and Marines" (and the obvious allusion to Afghanistan and Iraq), we've lost more young men and women to the streets of Chicago here in the US since 9/11/2001 than we have to the streets of Kabul.

Would you be saying that if it was your own child KIA in Iraq or Afghanistan?

cause not too be morbid. A lot of people say it’s worth going to fight but rarely ever is it their own kids.

I totally get the need for a military force and all that. I’m talking specifically about the last few conflicts with poor planning by flag officers.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Just out of curiousity:

Who in this thread served in Afghanistan or Iraq?

Or Vietnam?

just wondering if we have any here on AW.

 

[HSMPBR]

But I think emphasizing education, reducing crime, and looking at the destabilizing factors that tend to drive poverty and crime as a starting point so people see opportunities rather then just the military or crime.

What are governments to do when measures to reduce crime are promptly criticized for disproportionately affecting minorities and leading to mass incarceration?

Programs that help people attend community college, help them develop majors and paths to work, etc.

Those exist and have existed for a long time with both government and private funding.

Programs that address healthcare access and the disparate results from inadequate health care access. Did you know Black Mother’s face higher rates of maternal mortality and infant mortality? Then adequate care for children following birth.

“Even tennis star Serena Williams—a wealthy and remarkably powerful woman—nearly died from pregnancy-related complications.7”
Do you think Serena Williams encountered subpar care due to her race? No. These center for American progress articles blame infant mortality and mother morbidities on “stress induced by [racial and gender] discrimination.” A lot of organizations, think tanks, universities, and politicians are gaining a lot of money and power by blaming every problem on oppressors. Do you know where the highest infant mortality rate is in the world? Sub-Saharan Africa. Is it because of racial discrimination there too?

 

[nodropinufaka]

What are governments to do when measures to reduce crime are promptly criticized for disproportionately affecting minorities and leading to mass incarceration?

Those exist and have existed for a long time with both government and private funding.

“Even tennis star Serena Williams—a wealthy and remarkably powerful woman—nearly died from pregnancy-related complications.7”
Do you think Serena Williams encountered subpar care due to her race? No. These center for American progress articles blame infant mortality and mother morbidities on “stress induced by [racial and gender] discrimination.” A lot of organizations, think tanks, universities, and politicians are gaining a lot of money and power by blaming every problem on oppressors. Do you know where the highest infant mortality rate is in the world? Sub-Saharan Africa. Is it because of racial discrimination there too?

Low income neighborhood

The health of people with low incomes often suffers because they can’t afford adequate housing, food, or child care. Such living conditions, and the stress they cause, can lead to higher rates of tobacco and alcohol use and increase the risk of health problems developing or worsening over time...

www.commonwealthfund.org

Have you considered that areas of lower socioeconomic opportunities and less money don’t have the same level of healthcare?

poor communities often don’t have health insurance and no money to pay. So why is a private Health insurance company going to invest in hospitals and adequate health care there?

this effecting minorities is a disparate impact. Which I’m glad you pointed out Sub Saharan Africa cause it does well to prove my point

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Just out of curiousity:

Who in this thread served in Afghanistan or Iraq?

Or Vietnam?

just wondering if we have any here on AW.

Seriously?

 

[nodropinufaka]

Seriously?

Yes. Seriously.

I am not talking about a fifth fleet Persian gulf deployment but an actual boots on ground/ pilot in Iraq or Afghanistan.

I think it’s a fair question. Most of the Navy was deployed on ships.

I didn’t meet a lot of navy pilots during my time in that had been. They almost always were on carriers in various places.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Yes. Seriously.

I am not talking about a fifth fleet Persian gulf deployment but an actual boots on ground/ pilot in Iraq or Afghanistan.

I guess I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the stunning lack of awareness for someone who served to seriously ask a group of naval aviators if anyone has been to Iraq or Afghanistan.