Collings Foundation B-17 down in Connecticut

[Griz882]

New information has been released on the crash. I can see how lowering the gear early was a deadly move but I wonder if the age of the pilots contributed to the inability to get enough rudder authority out of the big old bomber? I am not multi-engine qualified but I have flown a T-6 and it demands you use your leg muscles so I imagine a B-17 must really be a job.

NTSB opens docket on Collings Foundation B–17 crash

The Boeing B–17 Flying Fortress that crashed short of the runway on a Collings Foundation flight in October 2019, killing seven people, never climbed more than 600 feet above the airport, according to documents released by the NTSB.

www.aopa.org

 

[VMO4]

The accident report that came out last week is pretty damning. Best way I can describe the situation is that it seems like a lot of guys, who love warbirds and want to share them, just lost their way and cut too many corners.

This, ....there are certainly areas to Monday morning quarterback, such as the putting out gear on downwind, or not entering a right base to the other runway, but those were just opportunities to possibly fix the first big mistake, which was ever taking that bird in the air that morning.

 

[nittany03]

This, ....there are certainly areas to Monday morning quarterback, such as the putting out gear on downwind, or not entering a right base to the other runway, but those were just opportunities to possibly fix the first big mistake, which was ever taking that bird in the air that morning.

Still pisses me off that they pissed away a historical treasure they were lucky enough to be put in charge of. One of the highlights of my career was flying out of the Fort Smith airshow in a T-45 and being #2 for takeoff behind Nine-O-Nine.

 

[Pags]

Still pisses me off that they pissed away a historical treasure they were lucky enough to be put in charge of. One of the highlights of my career was flying out of the Fort Smith airshow in a T-45 and being #2 for takeoff behind Nine-O-Nine.

Always part of the debate around flying warbirds. Should these one of a kind aircraft be flown or should they all be put into museums to preserve them? Personally I think it depends how many of them there are. If there's only ONE of this type of a/c left in the world then you shouldn't fly it. If rich people really want to know what it was like to fly one they can ways figure out how to get a new build version as was done with the Me262.

 

[nittany03]

Always part of the debate around flying warbirds. Should these one of a kind aircraft be flown or should they all be put into museums to preserve them? Personally I think it depends how many of them there are. If there's only ONE of this type of a/c left in the world then you shouldn't fly it. If rich people really want to know what it was like to fly one they can ways figure out how to get a new build version as was done with the Me262.

True, but mainly my point was don't gundeck the MX. There are multiple B-17s around, and I'd think we'd all agree that if you DO choose to fly it, the last thing you'd want is to put yourself and the community at an even greater chance of losing it by pencil-whipping things. I mean, there's understanding that malfunctions will occur any time you fly an aircraft, and then there's messing with magnetos instead of doing things right. In the grand scheme of things, the Collings Foundation's sortie completion rate means precisely nothing, so why cut corners in the first place? That's what's maddening.

 

[wink]

Took this couple weeks ago. CAF Airbase AZ B-17G Sentimental Journey holding short for launch.

 

[VMO4]

Along this same topic, is the crash of a B-25 in Southern California in September, there is at least a discussion about fuel "mismanagement" leading to both engines quitting.

 

[wink]

True, but mainly my point was don't gundeck the MX. There are multiple B-17s around, and I'd think we'd all agree that if you DO choose to fly it, the last thing you'd want is to put yourself and the community at an even greater chance of losing it by pencil-whipping things. I mean, there's understanding that malfunctions will occur any time you fly an aircraft, and then there's messing with magnetos instead of doing things right. In the grand scheme of things, the Collings Foundation's sortie completion rate means precisely nothing, so why cut corners in the first place? That's what's maddening.

When these sort of rare high value warbirds are flown as part of an appearance schedule around the country or for living history flights generating revenue, you end up with the same pressures you have in any flying ENTERPRISE ( as opposed to private collections or occasional demo flights at home base by museums ). Meeting schedule, mission completion, satisfied customers, $$$, all put pressure on MX, OPS and crews. The Living History Flight exemptions are great. Thank you FAA. Being able to generate any money that helps offset the cost of these aircraft is beneficial to historical preservation. But just like at an airline or a squadron, leadership must be sure to insulate maintainers and crews from the pressure to save money, or make a mission, whether a loop around the city with pax or a multicity tour. Airbase AZ lost a one of a kind Spanish built He111 back in 2003 while departing Cheyenne WY on the way to it's next appearance in Montana.

 

[jmcquate]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any warbirds that are rare besides rare to be flying, like A6Ms and FW-190s. Rare aircraft are in museums.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any warbirds that are rare besides rare to be flying, like A6Ms and FW-190s. Rare aircraft are in museums.

F-82 Twin Mustang ? Wikipedia says 5 exists, only 1 flying.

 

[jmcquate]

That came to mind Randy. But the other 4 are in museums including the NMUSAF and will be around for a while (although the one flying is rare in that it is a YF-82). The YF-82 in question was never going to a museum because the original civilian owner hated aviation museums. Walter Soplata was a hoarders hoarder, I was lucky enough to get a rare tour of his property back in the early 90s. First saw the YF-82 in pieces inside a B-36 fuselage.

 

[Griz882]

F-82 Twin Mustang ? Wikipedia says 5 exists, only 1 flying.

View attachment 28568

So which one is the NFO?

 

[jmcquate]

So which one is the NFO?

The one not flying

 

[nittany03]

When these sort of rare high value warbirds are flown as part of an appearance schedule around the country or for living history flights generating revenue, you end up with the same pressures you have in any flying ENTERPRISE ( as opposed to private collections or occasional demo flights at home base by museums ). Meeting schedule, mission completion, satisfied customers, $$$, all put pressure on MX, OPS and crews. The Living History Flight exemptions are great. Thank you FAA. Being able to generate any money that helps offset the cost of these aircraft is beneficial to historical preservation. But just like at an airline or a squadron, leadership must be sure to insulate maintainers and crews from the pressure to save money, or make a mission, whether a loop around the city with pax or a multicity tour. Airbase AZ lost a one of a kind Spanish built He111 back in 2003 while departing Cheyenne WY on the way to it's next appearance in Montana.

Yeah, I think we're saying similar things. My point is that you think folks trying to press a bad situation would be more limited by "holy shit, we might wreck this priceless historical thing, maybe we should revisit this ORM."

But then, this is also a world where staff officers were allegedly diddling hookers with MacArthur's pipe . . .

 

[Jim123]

The one not flying