Consequences for Veterans and/or retirees in the 2021 DC Riots

[Griz882]

Because of who was in the buildings (Congress) and what they were doing (certifying the election).

Knock all the rioters in Seattle on the head like seal pups, I'm fine with it. But the thing at the Capitol was of a different ilk.

I understand, I simply disagree. The buildings occupants (Congress) are just citizens like you and me. Yes, they have a special mission and have been selected to execute the business of the republic, but "they" are not the government. The president is not the government. The SCOTUS is not the government. They are all just parts of it. You and I and everyone else in the nation are the government and that can not be destroyed by a crowd of extremists.

Had the worse of the rioters of January 6th gotten actual hold of the building I posit that Congress could convene at O'Connell's Pub in Alexandria and approve the electoral results. The setting (Capitol Hill) is just window dressing, like assuming a pine tree in December represents Jesus Christ. The system (government) is way larger and stronger than that.

So that leaves us with those who destroy (a different act than protest). Don't confuse my adherence to actual justice with sympathy for any radical fringe. What happened on 1/6/21 was criminal. What happened on 1/20/17 was criminal. There is absolutely no distinction between the two beyond emotions over a building. That people feel they have no recourse other than to destroy is the real problem. That tens-of-thousands of American's think it is OK to burn federal property or a private business to get their word across is a problem. They are setting the table for a tragic loss of fundamental rights for the vast majority whose only "anti-government" act is to vote someone out of office.

 

[wink]

I don't wish to get into the "armed" semantics debate, but it reminded me of this. At least one person was armed, with a taser, and after trying to get Capitol Police Officer Fanone's gun, he was Tased several times. He thought he might lose his weapon and be shot. Some protestors encircled him to provide a degree of protection against the physical attacks on him, perhaps saving his life. After the fact, when asked what he wanted to say to his protectors, he said, “Thank you, but fuck you for being there,”. How can you argue with that?

 

[taxi1]

Had the worse of the rioters of January 6th gotten actual hold of the building I posit that Congress could convene at O'Connell's Pub in Alexandria and approve the electoral results. The setting (Capitol Hill) is just window dressing

I’m with you 100% on that, and it’s not a bad idea.

When people say it was all about building, though (not saying it’s you), it makes me think of Steve Martin. They hate the cans...

 

[Pags]

Disagree...

2017...Actions.

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2021...Actions

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So....Sesame Street this for me. Why is one of these things not like the other? Why is the big white government building "more" than the "that was my life savings" franchise?

Scores of police were injured in 2017.

Scores of police officers were injured in 2021.

Yes, there is the murder, but that was an individual act just as the Dallas cop shootings were an individual act and not the responsibility of BLM. I hoe the murderer is punished to the absolute fullest extent of the law.

But, you have no historical, legal, or ethical high ground to tell anyone that what happened on January 6th was "worse" or "better" than other political riots that damaged/destroyed property.

I already did sesame st it for you...one is 68 in a 55 and one is 110 in a 55. While it's certainly tragic that someone's car got burned and some businesses were damaged (possibly covered by insurance, corporate, small business assistance, etc) by the earlier event that's not the same NATIONAL impact as 6JAN. You burn down a Starbucks and it sucks for 100 people (most of will cope by going to the other Starbucks that's probably across the street) but you stop the legal conduct of democracy and it sucks for 300+ million people.

 

[Griz882]

I already did sesame st it for you...one is 68 in a 55 and one is 110 in a 55. While it's certainly tragic that someone's car got burned and some businesses were damaged (possibly covered by insurance, corporate, small business assistance, etc) by the earlier event that's not the same NATIONAL impact as 6JAN. You burn down a Starbucks and it sucks for 100 people (most of will cope by going to the other Starbucks that's probably across the street) but you stop the legal conduct of democracy and it sucks for 300+ million people.

OK, so you think like Orwell, some animals are “more equal.” I won’t argue that.

But, how can you stop the legal conduct of the republic? That’s the part I am interested in.

Put simply, it can’t be stopped. It is total BS to hyperventilate (and you have not) that “What if they had killed Pelosi or (insert name here)?” Nothing beyond a murder charge for the criminal. The governor would appoint a replacement and the system would keep plugging away. Somehow America has survived the deaths of Senators Chafee, Coverdale, Wellstone, Thomas, Kennedy, Byrd, Inouye, Lautenburg and McCain as well as the death of 24 representatives, all who died in office in the last 20 years.

As for the “level” of protest...again I disagree. The riots of 2017 were NATIONAL in scale, the riots in Minneapolis were NATIONAL in scale as were the riots in Dallas that left five police officer dead. Each one had a significant impact on our system.

 

[Hair Warrior]

If you see something, say nothing?

 

[Flash]

A fantastic example of willful ignorance.

Seems the same could be said about you.

You wrote "They did so with the stated intention and performed the actions of trying to undermine our government by force..." But refuse to actually read and comprehend the words..."There has been a lot of talk of peaceful transition of power as being a core element in a democracy and we want to reject that entirely and really undermine the peaceful transition..." written by others. Do tell...what is the difference?

The Capitol rioters actually did it.

I do not want to put words in your mouth but you appear to imply that a building is in fact our government when the US Capitol is just a structure and the people in it just servants to the electorate. Had the 9/11 attack actually hit the dome (as planned) would America have collapsed? Nope. The rioters of January 6 stopped nothing just as the rioters of January 20, 2017 stopped nothing. The rioters of January 6 DID NOT take over the building, they got inside. Moreover, dirty deeds in that building are hardly unprecedented - the place has suffered three bombings and two shootings in the 20th Century alone. The process survived because the process is stronger than any riot. But the fact is a riot to disrupt the peaceful transition of power is exactly like a riot to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. So, what is your metric? One dead cop...how about hundreds injured? How many private businesses have to be destoryed to make it "equal to" broken windows and a few missing signs on federal property?

My metric is the attempted overthrow of the US government, scores injured and 5 dead coupled with the disruption of the constitutional duties of the US Congress.

Again...I have ZERO sympathy for any person that destroys property. Again...I posit that justice isn't simply blind...it is REQUIRED to be blind.

you keep coming back to destroying property, they murdered a policeman and injured many others while loudly proclaiming to desire to do the same to members of Congress and the Vice President.

So, bottom line, totally fucking close. Indeed, "shack," "spot on," "direct hit," completely close.

Nope, not even close. If you can't grasp how this is different than some rioters burning cars and looting stores than there is no use in me debating you any more.

 

[Pags]

OK, so you think like Orwell, some animals are “more equal.” I won’t argue that.

But, how can you stop the legal conduct of the republic? That’s the part I am interested in.

Put simply, it can’t be stopped. It is total BS to hyperventilate (and you have not) that “What if they had killed Pelosi or (insert name here)?” Nothing beyond a murder charge for the criminal. The governor would appoint a replacement and the system would keep plugging away. Somehow America has survived the deaths of Senators Chafee, Coverdale, Wellstone, Thomas, Kennedy, Byrd, Inouye, Lautenburg and McCain as well as the death of 24 representatives, all who died in office in the last 20 years.

As for the “level” of protest...again I disagree. The riots of 2017 were NATIONAL in scale, the riots in Minneapolis were NATIONAL in scale as were the riots in Dallas that left five police officer dead. Each one had a significant impact on our system.

No, I didn't say more equal. I said we measure impacts of the transgressions. You don't get the same ticket for going 64 in a 55 as you do for going 110 in a 55. There are degrees of crimes that we pay our judges to you know... judge.

And again, if you think 2017 was bad then 2020 was bad and the same rules should apply to determine level of transgression. Perhaps those who now say "this isn't so bad" or "the cops shouldn't have shot that unarmed guy" for 6Jan should remember how they feel and use that to understand that this how the other side feels. Empathy...walk a mile in the other guys shoes. If this feeling sucks just remember that this is how others have felt.

 

[FrankTheTank]

YHGTBFSM with the Orwell references. So people are allowed to commit an armed invasion of government spaces, and the FBI is just supposed to shrug their shoulders and slow-walk the investigation?

Correct me if I’m wrong (I know you will) but I have not heard a single report of one person having a firearm. Only thing I have seen reported is a dumbass with plastic cuffs!

Was late to thread jack... But I have not heard a single report of a firearm (legal, illegal, CCW).. And you can bet your ass if there was just ONE, it would be in the headlines!

 

[Griz882]

No, I didn't say more equal. I said we measure impacts of the transgressions. You don't get the same ticket for going 64 in a 55 as you do for going 110 in a 55. There are degrees of crimes that we pay our judges to you know... judge.

And again, if you think 2017 was bad then 2020 was bad and the same rules should apply to determine level of transgression. Perhaps those who now say "this isn't so bad" or "the cops shouldn't have shot that unarmed guy" for 6Jan should remember how they feel and use that to understand that this how the other side feels. Empathy...walk a mile in the other guys shoes. If this feeling sucks just remember that this is how others have felt.

Indeed, I think we agree. The courts will decide the level of transgression. Murders will be charged with murders and rioters will face charges equal to the level of their crimes. Empathy is why I have written what I have written. I hold no regard for either side, my concern is only with those harmed and equality under the law.

 

[jmcquate]

This protest/riot/insurrection dick measuring is riveting. I'm an old (well oldish) man , and I've seen a lot, and for the first time I'm genuinely concerned about the future of this wonderful, unique, experiment in government based upon inalienable rights and liberty. This madness has to end, but I'm not hopeful. I pray that I'm wrong.

 

[HAL Pilot]

This protest/riot/insurrection dick measuring is riveting. I'm an old (well oldish) man , and I've seen a lot, and for the first time I'm genuinely concerned about the future of this wonderful, unique, experiment in government based upon inalienable rights and liberty. This madness has to end, but I'm not hopeful. I pray that I'm wrong.

So much dramatic horse shit in this thread.

The only violence on Inauguration Day was from leftie/Antifa in the libtard meccas of Seattle and Portland already wanting force Biden out of office. They were holding signs saying " Skin Biden + Kopmala" Not a word about threating the President and Vice President from the main steam news or leftie politicians. But those right wingers, they're the real threat....

Hypocrisy once again.

 

[Griz882]

Seems the same could be said about you.



The Capitol rioters actually did it.



My metric is the attempted overthrow of the US government, scores injured and 5 dead coupled with the disruption of the constitutional duties of the US Congress.



you keep coming back to destroying property, they murdered a policeman and injured many others while loudly proclaiming to desire to do the same to members of Congress and the Vice President.



Nope, not even close. If you can't grasp how this is different than some rioters burning cars and looting stores than there is no use in me debating you any more.

My statement stands. You wrote nothing accurate enough to change anything. Thus we won’t debate.

So, here is my prediction. No one, not one single person involved in the 21 riot will be charged with treason, insurrection, or sedition. Those who murdered will be charged with murder. Those who assaulted police officers will be charged with assault. Those who stole property will be charged with theft and the rest will be charged with disturbing the peace and trespassing crimes. Indeed, thus far most of those actually charged were charged with the same crime the protesters at the Brett Kavanaugh hearings...”intent to impede government business or official functions.” Like other protestors, those charges will mostly be dismissed.

 

[robav8r]

I understand, I simply disagree. The buildings occupants (Congress) are just citizens like you and me. Yes, they have a special mission and have been selected to execute the business of the republic, but "they" are not the government. The president is not the government. The SCOTUS is not the government. They are all just parts of it. You and I and everyone else in the nation are the government and that can not be destroyed by a crowd of extremists.

Had the worse of the rioters of January 6th gotten actual hold of the building I posit that Congress could convene at O'Connell's Pub in Alexandria and approve the electoral results. The setting (Capitol Hill) is just window dressing, like assuming a pine tree in December represents Jesus Christ. The system (government) is way larger and stronger than that.

So that leaves us with those who destroy (a different act than protest). Don't confuse my adherence to actual justice with sympathy for any radical fringe. What happened on 1/6/21 was criminal. What happened on 1/20/17 was criminal. There is absolutely no distinction between the two beyond emotions over a building. That people feel they have no recourse other than to destroy is the real problem. That tens-of-thousands of American's think it is OK to burn federal property or a private business to get their word across is a problem. They are setting the table for a tragic loss of fundamental rights for the vast majority whose only "anti-government" act is to vote someone out of office.

Can‘t love this enough . . . . . ❤️

 

[SlickAg]

I guess the honeymoon is over and it’s back to soldiers and dogs keep off the grass.

‘We feel incredibly betrayed’: Thousands of Guardsmen forced to vacate Capitol

Guardsmen were later let back into facilities after an outcry from lawmakers.

www.politico.com