Consequences for Veterans and/or retirees in the 2021 DC Riots

[Brett327]

I would argue the second biggest failure that day, next to Capitol security, was the lack of an actual message once inside. All of this time and energy, penetrating security, risking injury/arrest/death, and all that really came out of it was people making Tik-Tok selfies wearing a buffalo head. Kind of seems like it's the right's equivalent to stealing a new iMac from a retailer's storefront.

While there was certainly a lot of that, it seems clear that, had certain elements of the mob come across members or VPOTUS, there could easily have been additional bloodshed. For those who had zip-tie cuffs at the ready, they had some idea of what they wanted to accomplish once inside.

Probably a gray area legally, but it will be interesting to see how broadly prosecutors apply accessory charges.

 

[flgator92]

But it was an armed insurrection

Being armed is certainly a sufficient but not necessary condition of an insurrection. Violent resistance to the authority of a state is an insurrection. Violence is a necessary condition to insurrection. The Capitol siege is certainly an insurrection- even if halfhearted- by conventional understandings of the term. More to the point, in the charging documents of some of the protestors, the government has already brought charges related to firearms possession on federal property. So, some were armed nevertheless.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Sorry but you guys (and the Dems, lefties, mainstream media, etc.) are being over dramatic. It was a protest that descended into violence and rioting and nothing else. No one declared they were overthrowing the government, that they were in charge of the government, that it was a coup, or anything similar. To say it was an insurrection or sedition is purely political and an overstretch being promulgated by the Trump haters.

Taking pictures sitting at the Speaker's desk or on the House floor dais is not trying to over the government.

Last summers riots had "otherwise peaceful protesters" calling for a new government, removing Trump from office, death to Trump and all the same rhetoric that is being used here to try and make this an insurrection. Why is no one is saying Antifa, the lefties, BLM, etc. are guilty of insurrection or sedition? They may not have gone into the Capitol building but they invaded or tried to to invade many government buildings and offices at all levels of government. Many of them were armed with automatic weapons too. CHAZ declared independence. Yet the Dem politicians and lefties went out fo their way making excuses why this was all just.

The goal of the original protest was to force Congress or the VP o overturn the election results in a manner the protesters thought was constitutionally within Congressional or VP power. It was not to overthrow the United States government or impose their own government.

Hypocrisy and sensationalism at its finest.

 

[Seawolf42]

Sorry but you guys (and the Dems, lefties, mainstream media, etc.) are being over dramatic. It was a protest that descended into violence and rioting and nothing else. No one declared they were overthrowing the government, that they were in charge of the government, that it was a coup, or anything similar. To say it was an insurrection or sedition is purely political and an overstretch being promulgated by the Trump haters.

Taking pictures sitting at the Speaker's desk or on the House floor dais is not trying to over the government.

Last summers riots had "otherwise peaceful protesters" calling for a new government, removing Trump from office, death to Trump and all the same rhetoric that is being used here to try and make this an insurrection. Why is no one is saying Antifa, the lefties, BLM, etc. are guilty of insurrection or sedition? They may not have gone into the Capitol building but they invaded or tried to to invade many government buildings and offices at all levels of government. Many of them were armed with automatic weapons too. CHAZ declared independence. Yet the Dem politicians and lefties went out fo their way making excuses why this was all just.

The goal of the original protest was to force Congress or the VP o overturn the election results in a manner the protesters thought was constitutionally within Congressional or VP power. It was not to overthrow the United States government or impose their own government.

Hypocrisy and sensationalism at its finest.

Sorry but you guys (and the Dems, lefties, mainstream media, etc.) are being over dramatic. It was a protest that descended into violence and rioting and nothing else. No one declared they were overthrowing the government, that they were in charge of the government, that it was a coup, or anything similar. To say it was an insurrection or sedition is purely political and an overstretch being promulgated by the Trump haters.

Taking pictures sitting at the Speaker's desk or on the House floor dais is not trying to over the government.

Last summers riots had "otherwise peaceful protesters" calling for a new government, removing Trump from office, death to Trump and all the same rhetoric that is being used here to try and make this an insurrection. Why is no one is saying Antifa, the lefties, BLM, etc. are guilty of insurrection or sedition? They may not have gone into the Capitol building but they invaded or tried to to invade many government buildings and offices at all levels of government. Many of them were armed with automatic weapons too. CHAZ declared independence. Yet the Dem politicians and lefties went out fo their way making excuses why this was all just.

The goal of the original protest was to force Congress or the VP o overturn the election results in a manner the protesters thought was constitutionally within Congressional or VP power. It was not to overthrow the United States government or impose their own government.

Hypocrisy and sensationalism at its finest.

So, is it ok for an armed mob to break into the capital and force elected officials to illegally alter election results because you think it is ok to do that?

 

[cfam]

Sorry but you guys (and the Dems, lefties, mainstream media, etc.) are being over dramatic. It was a protest that descended into violence and rioting and nothing else. No one declared they were overthrowing the government, that they were in charge of the government, that it was a coup, or anything similar. To say it was an insurrection or sedition is purely political and an overstretch being promulgated by the Trump haters.

Taking pictures sitting at the Speaker's desk or on the House floor dais is not trying to over the government.

Last summers riots had "otherwise peaceful protesters" calling for a new government, removing Trump from office, death to Trump and all the same rhetoric that is being used here to try and make this an insurrection. Why is no one is saying Antifa, the lefties, BLM, etc. are guilty of insurrection or sedition? They may not have gone into the Capitol building but they invaded or tried to to invade many government buildings and offices at all levels of government. Many of them were armed with automatic weapons too. CHAZ declared independence. Yet the Dem politicians and lefties went out fo their way making excuses why this was all just.

The goal of the original protest was to force Congress or the VP o overturn the election results in a manner the protesters thought was constitutionally within Congressional or VP power. It was not to overthrow the United States government or impose their own government.

Hypocrisy and sensationalism at its finest.

The Senate majority leader himself begs to disagree with your position. Does that make him a Trump hater, a democratic politician, a leftist or a member of the mainstream media?

"This failed insurrection underscored how crucial the task before us is for our public."

'They failed': McConnell condemns rioters who stormed the Capitol

Congress is pressing forward with its certification of President-elect Joe Biden's victory.

www.politico.com

Honestly, I make every conceivable effort to stay out of the political discussions on this site. I don't think any of you care about my political viewpoints any more than I care about yours. I guess I just don't understand how we all can't agree that disregarding the will of the people and attempting to influence the results of a properly run election is at all an appropriate response to the guy you don't like winning.

 

[Gatordev]

While there was certainly a lot of that, it seems clear that, had certain elements of the mob come across members or VPOTUS, there could easily have been additional bloodshed. For those who had zip-tie cuffs at the ready, they had some idea of what they wanted to accomplish once inside.

I get your point, but it (the overall situation) seems to suffer from the overall "patriot"/LARPers creed of grand plans which ends up meeting reality and the realization that ideals or imagined liberation don't pay the legal bills, no matter how many social media likes you get.

 

[Pags]

Sorry but you guys (and the Dems, lefties, mainstream media, etc.) are being over dramatic. It was a protest that descended into violence and rioting and nothing else. No one declared they were overthrowing the government, that they were in charge of the government, that it was a coup, or anything similar. To say it was an insurrection or sedition is purely political and an overstretch being promulgated by the Trump haters.

Taking pictures sitting at the Speaker's desk or on the House floor dais is not trying to over the government.

Last summers riots had "otherwise peaceful protesters" calling for a new government, removing Trump from office, death to Trump and all the same rhetoric that is being used here to try and make this an insurrection. Why is no one is saying Antifa, the lefties, BLM, etc. are guilty of insurrection or sedition? They may not have gone into the Capitol building but they invaded or tried to to invade many government buildings and offices at all levels of government. Many of them were armed with automatic weapons too. CHAZ declared independence. Yet the Dem politicians and lefties went out fo their way making excuses why this was all just.

The goal of the original protest was to force Congress or the VP o overturn the election results in a manner the protesters thought was constitutionally within Congressional or VP power. It was not to overthrow the United States government or impose their own government.

Hypocrisy and sensationalism at its finest.

It's because BLM didn't enter a building where with the premeditated intent to at the best illegally interfere with the legal conduct of government in certifying an election (as shown to be conducted legally in numerous conservative states by numerous conservative judges) and at the worst to ziptie the VP, Senators, and Representatives. While there was certainly a lot of property destruction, rule breaking, and shennagins associated with the various BLM protests this summer at no point did BLM attempt to prevent the constitutional conduct of the government nor did they run into federal buildings with zipties intent on something presumably less than good. Had the MAGAverse stayed in the lawn and maybe tussled with some cops it would have been a legal protest. But to try and stop or affect the legislative branch in certifying the election isn't legal.


Also while it may be tempting to see this as part of the struggle between executive and legislative powers that's a matter for the courts. The fact that the sitting President summoned a mob to deal with executive vs legislative powers should be an eye brow raiser. The fact that the executive branch thought that it had the constitutional power to determine the outcome of a presidential election is also something that should make you say, "hmmm".

 

[ABMD]

I wouldn't call it ridiculous according to the dictionary definition of what an "insurrection" is.


The thesaurus then compares several synonyms, emphasis mine.

"Armed uprising that quickly fails." People were armed. Definitely was an uprising. Definitely, and thankfully, failed quickly.

Well that makes the "Summer of Love" also an insurrection and some of those BLM rioters were also armed.

 

[BigRed389]

The Senate majority leader himself begs to disagree with your position. Does that make him a Trump hater, a democratic politician, a leftist or a member of the mainstream media?

"This failed insurrection underscored how crucial the task before us is for our public."

'They failed': McConnell condemns rioters who stormed the Capitol

Congress is pressing forward with its certification of President-elect Joe Biden's victory.

www.politico.com

Honestly, I make every conceivable effort to stay out of the political discussions on this site. I don't think any of you care about my political viewpoints any more than I care about yours. I guess I just don't understand how we all can't agree that disregarding the will of the people and attempting to influence the results of a properly run election is at all an appropriate response to the guy you don't like winning.

To be fair, I think pretty much everybody agree it's not an appropriate response. It's all just nitpicking at terminology on what it's called.

I don't think it's at all far from the mark in calling it an insurrection but if somebody just wants to debate the finer points of strict legal definitions because moonlighting as a JAG is their jam, then that's their prerogative.

Whatever you want to call it, it was wrong.
Over the coming weeks, a lot of National Guard Officers and NCOs are going to have to square what happened to their people as they prepare to deal with the potential for more riots with some of the same groups and individuals as we go on. If they want to call it an insurrection, coup, or even rebellion, whatever works for them is fine by me.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

So, is it ok for an armed mob to break into the capital and force elected officials to illegally alter election results because you think it is ok to do that?

Not armed. Capitol.

 

[Ghost SWO]

For several months of Trump rally's they chanted "Blue lives matter" with giant police and firefighter flags hung as a back drop. Now what we heard on the 6th was "F the police", followed by scenes of pepper-spraying police in the face, throwing things at them, and then finally infiltrating the senate through broken windows. And we're supposed to believe these "Trump supporters" are somehow the same Trump supporters we saw at his rallies in months past who chanted blues lives matter? I think we saw a very different crowd at the front that led this escapade, a crowd that was more interested in overthrowing a process than supporting a president.

 

[taxi1]

Wnder if any Navy selres were in there.

 

[Griz882]

It's because BLM didn't enter a building where with the premeditated intent to at the best illegally interfere with the legal conduct of government in certifying an election (as shown to be conducted legally in numerous conservative states by numerous conservative judges) and at the worst to ziptie the VP, Senators, and Representatives. While there was certainly a lot of property destruction, rule breaking, and shennagins associated with the various BLM protests this summer at no point did BLM attempt to prevent the constitutional conduct of the government nor did they run into federal buildings with zipties intent on something presumably less than good.

I’m not sure I’d fully agree. BLM protesters over ran and took control of police stations in Seattle, Minneapolis, and Baltimore. If the police aren’t, metaphysically speaking” a clear indication of a government seeking to maintain established laws, then what is? Please note that I am NOT defending the actions of those in D.C. but I do have a hard time seeing how Hawk Newsome (BLM leader) tweeting that if change doesn’t happen then “we will burn this system down” is any less seditious than the anti-government garbage posted on some Qanon (sorry if it’s misspelled) site? It strikes me that we are meshing the physical structure that is the capitol building with the philosophical structure that is our actual government.

Are we only concerned with “property crimes?” You note that “BLM did not run into federal buildings with zipties intent on something presumably less than good” but they did try to set fire to the federal building in Portland and others have, further in the past, raided ICE buildings in the PNW. Is assaulting a distant federal building more acceptable than attacking one in D.C.? Was the destruction of federal property (in the form of Albert “who?” Pike’s statue) in D.C less of an offense than smashing things in the capitol?

I don’t want to get into an apples v oranges - “but they did this” kind of thing, and I stand by my belief that once you break something you go from “cause” to “mob,” and I don’t give a crap about the politics of the thing, but it is the ardent need to make one fringe look better than another fringe that drives people nuts. Sedition is sedition or it is free speech. The politics of the writer, the skin tone of the writer, or the intent of the writer is the least important thing in this discussion. In short, you can call the BLM people arsonists or call the Qanon people seditious but in the end they are both just criminals.

 

[skybert]

They should get the same punishment the rioters got last summer

 

[Hair Warrior]

Whatever you want to call it, it was wrong.
Over the coming weeks, a lot of National Guard Officers and NCOs are going to have to square what happened to their people as they prepare to deal with the potential for more riots with some of the same groups and individuals as we go on. If they want to call it an insurrection, coup, or even rebellion, whatever works for them is fine by me.

Whiskey Rebellion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And look, I count myself as a fan of both George Washington AND whiskey, so I get it.