CORTRAMID West T-34 flight

[Gatordev]

What needs were they serving? Low safe? Why does every other community get by without them?

Keep in mind, on the helo side anyway, the necessity of the training being done is arguable, but it is in the T&R....somehow. But they were a Low Slow Flyer platform for the helos. Much cheaper to fly a T-34 and a -60 then fly two -60s. But it's certainly possible to do it without the Weiner. I was showing up as the VS guys were going away, so I'm not completely sure what role they served to the point-nosed guys. I'm guessing it was more necessary back when Cecil was active.

As for "every community" getting by with out them, I'd argue they aren't, at least on the Navy side. Since every major jet base(Fallon, Lemoore, Oceana, Mirramar) has them, they're obviously super-duper important to all things pointy. Can you sense my sarcasm? Personally, I didn't care how "necessary" the needs were, I'm just disappointed that I can't help meet those needs now.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I think that MIDNJAC has it right. It's all about the boondoggle.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think that MIDNJAC has it right. It's all about the boondoggle.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I don't think you are a true Naval Aviator unless you are at least working on some sort of scam

 

[Harrier Dude]

Keep in mind, on the helo side anyway, the necessity of the training being done is arguable, but it is in the T&R....somehow. But they were a Low Slow Flyer platform for the helos. Much cheaper to fly a T-34 and a -60 then fly two -60s. But it's certainly possible to do it without the Weiner. I was showing up as the VS guys were going away, so I'm not completely sure what role they served to the point-nosed guys. I'm guessing it was more necessary back when Cecil was active.

As for "every community" getting by with out them, I'd argue they aren't, at least on the Navy side. Since every major jet base(Fallon, Lemoore, Oceana, Mirramar) has them, they're obviously super-duper important to all things pointy. Can you sense my sarcasm? Personally, I didn't care how "necessary" the needs were, I'm just disappointed that I can't help meet those needs now.

I know you're being sarcastic, and there's no way you could give that "we need them for low/slow flyer training" with a straight face, but.......just to follow it through......

Cherry Point, Beaufort, Yuma, and (maybe) Whidbey don't have them. Why not?

Could they not benefit from the economic savings harvested by using T-34s for training? Are they not capable/worthy of getting in on the boondoggle?

The whole world wonders...,,

 

[pilot_man]

I know you're being sarcastic, and there's no way you could give that "we need them for low/slow flyer training" with a straight face, but.......just to follow it through......

Cherry Point, Beaufort, Yuma, and (maybe) Whidbey don't have them. Why not?

Could they not benefit from the economic savings harvested by using T-34s for training? Are they not capable/worthy of getting in on the boondoggle?

The whole world wonders...,,

Since we're throwing stones here, then how about the boondoggle that is Marine aviation! The T-34's get used on a daily basis to act as low safes not only for the Weapon Schools and FRSs, but also in Fallon during Airwing training. Why don't the Marines use them? Who knows? Why do Marines do half of what they do? Just because the Harrier comunity doesn't use them doesn't mean they shouldn't. I'm not sure why you bring Whidbey up, it's not like they are dropping a whole lot of A/G.

 

[helolumpy]

What needs were they serving? Low safe? Why does every other community get by without them?

They were originally designed to act as RMC/RESCORT for CSAR training. We could have a WTI in the T-34 over head as a role player and actually run the scenario like an RMC would do in real life. They would do stuff like pass the 9-line, call out Ex-check code words, etc.

This way the evaluator in the left seat would only have to worry about observing the pilot getting the check ride and being a good copilot. Once you add running the scenario and trying to act as RMC and/or RESCORT, then the WTI could become task saturated and lose SA on what was actually going on in the aircraft or the position of the wingman, etc.

That's how it was sold, but I never saw it actually used...

 

[HuggyU2]

There are a whole bunch of T-34's getting ready to go unemployed in NAVAIR, n'est pas?
I wonder where they will all go....

 

[Harrier Dude]

Since we're throwing stones here, then how about the boondoggle that is Marine aviation! The T-34's get used on a daily basis to act as low safes not only for the Weapon Schools and FRSs, but also in Fallon during Airwing training. Why don't the Marines use them? Who knows? Why do Marines do half of what they do? Just because the Harrier comunity doesn't use them doesn't mean they shouldn't. I'm not sure why you bring Whidbey up, it's not like they are dropping a whole lot of A/G.

All of Marine Aviation is a boondoggle? Ok dude. Whatever.

I brought up the Whidbey guys because they do tactical flying as well (I assume), or at least as tactical as HSL role-players for CSAR is.

We don't use them in the Harrier community not because we couldn't find some semi-relevant excuse to get in on the boondoggle, but because NAVAIR would never let us get away with it. We weren't offered them (as far as i know). It's not like we would have turned them down.

We aren't as important to NAVAIR as the Hornet community is. Therefore we'll never get the money or support that they will. The T-34 boondoggle is just one manifestation of that.

It's not that big of a deal. I just find it emblematic and kind of humorous. If I wanted to get good support from NAVAIR I should have stayed in the navy.

If I wanted support even better than NAVAIR, I should have joined the air force.

It is what it is.

 

[BACONATOR]

I am totally down with ridiculous boondoggles for chow. After all, I routinely fly into Big Bear just for the blueberry French toast.

I'd just like to do it in a T-34 via some stunt flying once in awhile.

I didn't fly today. You at NKX? You know they have C-12s there, too. They have the big new Whiskeys. Pretty sweet when they work.

Big Bear is a GREAT $100 hamburger, although, a bit sporty to land there in a fully loaded cessna.....

 

[MIDNJAC]

Out of curiosity, what do Harrier FRS folk use as low safes?

As for Whidbey/VAQ-129, they don't do any A/G deliveries so I wouldn't think they would need one.

 

[statesman]

There are a whole bunch of T-34's getting ready to go unemployed in NAVAIR, n'est pas?
I wonder where they will all go....

To the scrap heap... Least thats the rumor where I am...

Word on the street is the Navy won't sell them because the T-34s used for Primary are damaged, bent, and busted so far from safe that they dont want the liability of anyone else flying them...

 

[FlyingOnFumes]

Good times! With a little luck, she might become a 3rd Generation Naval Aviator (A-1 / A-4 grandfather, A-6 father, EC-130 / TC-4C / 727 / A320 / 777 mother).

I'm surprised you haven't gotten questions posted here yet to the effect of: "Is she single?"

 

[Harrier Dude]

Out of curiosity, what do Harrier FRS folk use as low safes?

As for Whidbey/VAQ-129, they don't do any A/G deliveries so I wouldn't think they would need one.

We don't.

The flight lead is responsible for ensuring that his wingmen don't hit the ground.

We also beat target fixation, low pullouts, dudding your bombs, etc out of them pretty good during simulator training and their first couple of raked range events, which are in a two seater.

Are there occasional low pulls? Yes. They're either caught by the flight lead and aborted or caught in the debrief on the tape or DSU download and corrected. Probably with painful documentation and a refly if it's low enough.

I can't remember any CFIT A/G mishaps in the Harrier off the top of my head. There was the WTI night systems CAS where the guy hit the cactus, but having a T-34 wouldn't have helped then. The FAC saved his life.

Did they have low safes in the A-6 and A-4 RAGs back in the day?

I know they used to have T-2s at bases for spin training years ago. That was probably money well spent at the time. Nothing really spins anymore, but back then they did.

 

[SynixMan]

There are a whole bunch of T-34's getting ready to go unemployed in NAVAIR, n'est pas?
I wonder where they will all go....

You'd think, but most of our very old ones are headed to the bone yard.

 

[pourts]

So nobody has ever hit the ground in a Harrier while doing A/G? I find that hard to believe. Hey, I have lots of buddies flying Harriers, most of whom are better pilots than me (bottom side of the Harrier cut), but I still find that hard to believe.

The whole "low safe" thing probably started as a knee-jerk reaction to a mishap. Are they useful? I don't know, and it would be pretty hard to prove whether they were or not. I only had tapes work on <10% of my strike or fwt flights so that really isn't a viable mechanism to monitor studs.

Boondoggle, maybe, but 5 or 6 t-34 flights are still probably cheaper than the 7000# I "adjusted gross weight" on for a single fclp flight.