CORTRAMID West T-34 flight

[Harrier Dude]

So nobody has ever hit the ground in a Harrier while doing A/G? I find that hard to believe. Hey, I have lots of buddies flying Harriers, most of whom are better pilots than me (bottom side of the Harrier cut), but I still find that hard to believe.

The whole "low safe" thing probably started as a knee-jerk reaction to a mishap. Are they useful? I don't know, and it would be pretty hard to prove whether they were or not. I only had tapes work on <10% of my strike or fwt flights so that really isn't a viable mechanism to monitor studs.

Boondoggle, maybe, but 5 or 6 t-34 flights are still probably cheaper than the 7000# I "adjusted gross weight" on for a single fclp flight.

It may be hard to believe, and I said before that I was talking off the top of my head, but on further reflection, I can't think of a single CFIT during air to ground aside from the WTI incident I mentioned before.

I've been flying Harriers for a few years, and as a former RAG instructor and DOSS, I've pretty much read all of the mishap reports from about 1990 to about 2 years ago. I don't remember seeing anything like that.

I can remember at least 2 in the Hornet, but like our WTI incident, one of them was at night on the goggles so I doubt that having a T-34 arcing about would have been very helpful.

Maybe I should do a query on the safety center site to cross reference CFITs by community. Oh, wait....... I can't do that. Privilege and what not.

If we "don't know if they're helping", then we should probably find out for sure. If they ARE, then I would respectfully suggest that ALL air to ground communities get them.

If they're not, then let's just admit that they're a giant boondoggle (not that there's anything wrong with that) and quit bullshitting ourselves.

 

[MasterBates]

Boondoggle, maybe, but 5 or 6 t-34 flights are still probably cheaper than the 7000# I "adjusted gross weight" on for a single fclp flight.

You mean you don't take "Wave Off, HEAVY" for all your FCLP passes and never actually fly the ball all the way to touchdown until you roll in behind the boat?

 

[MasterBates]

I'm surprised you haven't gotten questions posted here yet to the effect of: "Is she single?"

You just did. And A-6 is heading to your house to counsel you as we speak. :icon_smil

 

[Gatordev]

I know you're being sarcastic, and there's no way you could give that "we need them for low/slow flyer training" with a straight face, but.......just to follow it through......

Cherry Point, Beaufort, Yuma, and (maybe) Whidbey don't have them. Why not?

In case it wasn't clear, don't confuse the stated need for them (on the HSL side) with my actual opinion on validity of that particular portion of the T&R (and many other parts of it, too). As for why don't the MCASs you mentioned have them? Probably because they're Marine bases and the money is needed elsewhere. Why can't the Yuma and K-Bay BOQ not be a shithole? Seriously, though, I'm guessing limited number of assets is a problem, as well...which I'll get to in a moment.

I brought up the Whidbey guys because they do tactical flying as well (I assume), or at least as tactical as HSL role-players for CSAR is.

In the interest of keeping the facts straight, the CSAR "need" was for the HS guys. So originally, they were used by the VS guys for whatever they actually did (range events and probably supporting the VA/VFA guys at Cecil) and in theory, supporting the HS guys. Later on, HSL tried to use them (through the VS guys) and had limited success. Once the VS guys went away, they were transferred over to HSL, though the program was a dead man walking.

If I wanted to get good support from NAVAIR I should have stayed in the navy.

It is what it is.

I've always had this impression and is probably just one more reason.

There are a whole bunch of T-34's getting ready to go unemployed in NAVAIR, n'est pas?
I wonder where they will all go....

As was mentioned, many of them are just plane done. Many are already going past their service life and were re-winged. Many others started getting G-limited for FLM. And this is where some of the limits of everyone getting a T-34 may come in. Originally they were scattered about but over the last few years, the Weapon Schools have had to give up some airframes because they were low time (they don't fly anywhere near as much as an Orange and White one does and don't have all the doodads that the CNATRA birds do) and sent to CNATRA. Of course some of the weapon schools, as HD has alluded to, have more clout in NAVAIR, and complain that only having 3 T-34s isn't enough and they need all 5. So they "took" some from other weapon schools. If money wasn't the issue it is today, I wouldn't be surprised if they were redistributed once the T-6 is fully online since the Navy will have some airframes with life left in them, but nowadays, that may be an easy budgetary kill and they'll just go to the desert for safe keeping (there are already some there now, mostly from Corpus). Also, nowadays, I don't think the Flying Clubs can afford to run a T-34C. Maybe if general aviation takes off again, but many clubs are barely able to keep their Cessnas going.

If they're not, then let's just admit that they're a giant boondoggle (not that there's anything wrong with that) and quit bullshitting ourselves.

In the role that I saw them used here and saw them used up in Oceana (which by no means was "every day" ), I wouldn't call it a GIANT boondoggle. But it was/is a pretty damn good gig.

 

[pilot_man]

All of Marine Aviation is a boondoggle? Ok dude. Whatever.

I brought up the Whidbey guys because they do tactical flying as well (I assume), or at least as tactical as HSL role-players for CSAR is.

We don't use them in the Harrier community not because we couldn't find some semi-relevant excuse to get in on the boondoggle, but because NAVAIR would never let us get away with it. We weren't offered them (as far as i know). It's not like we would have turned them down.

We aren't as important to NAVAIR as the Hornet community is. Therefore we'll never get the money or support that they will. The T-34 boondoggle is just one manifestation of that.

It's not that big of a deal. I just find it emblematic and kind of humorous. If I wanted to get good support from NAVAIR I should have stayed in the navy.

If I wanted support even better than NAVAIR, I should have joined the air force.

It is what it is.

First sorry for the joke, it wasn't funny. Whidbey guys don't point their noses at the ground like the rest of the community. The money thing is what it is. You Marines have always been good at making due with what you're given. T-34's are on their last leg anyways, so they will either be replaced by something newer and more fun, or the whole program will just go away.

 

[a-6intruder]

You just did. And A-6 is heading to your house to counsel you as we speak. :icon_smil

Naah, she can take care of herself. She also had some fun w/ HSM-75 (I think) last week.

Next week is Marine week, then Subs and SWO. Talk about peaking early...just kidding (a bit).

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a low safe?

 

[MasterBates]

Yeah. I'm curious myself.

 

[KBayDog]

Yeah. I'm curious myself.

It's what keeps airships from descending dangerously close to the drink, flat-hatting, and zooming vessels.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a low safe?

As I understand it (clearly we don't rate/need them in my community), an instructor goes out in a T-34 when students are dropping bombs, like in a raked range.

He orbits in the vicinity of the target (obviously not too close, but close enough to observe the drops) at either release altitude or Zmin and corrects/aborts/chastises those that are passing his altitude without getting their nose up.

The idea is that he keeps people from getting target fixation and driving into the deck.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Low safes are required for student solo raked range or live ord events.....as HD mentioned, T-34 with a couple qual'd IP's in it beat you out to the area, check in with range control and do a clearing pass, then they hang out around 500' or so and just monitor the progress of the flight. A lot of times, due to maintenance issues or whatever, we (students) will end up pressing out solo and completing the event as a single, so the low safe is the only other a/c around. I have yet to hear of anyone having a low pull, or target fixation, though I suppose it happens on rare occasion.

 

[pourts]

T-34 low safes are the only way most of our flight surgeons can get flight hours because they get airsick. Now that's a whole nother boondoggle in itself.

 

[MasterBates]

I suggest your flight surgeons stop being pussies.

Sent via my HTC EVO 4G

 

[pourts]

I suggest your flight surgeons stop being pussies.

Sent via my HTC EVO 4G

I suggest they cut the requirement that they have to get flight hours. "Oh, you have no appointments for 2.5 weeks? Thats funny, because the doc flew every other day last week. Oh well, he has his priorities in order though..."

 

[Flying Toaster]

Stupid question, is there some official policy regarding flight surgeons and flight time? I had some idea that occurred and just assumed it's a type of incentive. Is there any other logic to it?