Don’t forget about the visible indicator of vaccination status that has to be worn at all times.
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COVID-19
- Thread starter Treetop Flyer
- Start date
You're the one comfortable trading your freedom to live in fear of a virus that's overwhelmingly survivable. Don't be surprised when about half of Americans don't agree with your embrace of a police state that won't let you travel freely, protest freely, speak out about restrictions, freely associate, practice your religion, etc.
We are different. For better or worse, we are different. We still have our guns, for one, which makes enforcement of draconian Australian-style lockdowns a lot....stickier.
Good luck when the goalposts shift again.
At the moment I'm still 'bragging' that we are community covid free. for how long I don't know. Sydney never locked down properly and now has a wave, that they can't control. I think it's just a matter of time before we are over-run. Delta is a game changer. I put up a link to where masks are required. It's not when I leave my house.
What do you guys think of curfews, are they bad?
What do you guys think of curfews, are they bad?
A curfew for a defined period of time to reduce looting after a natural disaster is the same as a covid police state? No. No it is not. But you know that already.At the moment I'm still 'bragging' that we are community covid free. for how long I don't know. Sydney never locked down properly and now has a wave, that they can't control. I think it's just a matter of time before we are over-run. Delta is a game changer. I put up a link to where masks are required. It's not when I leave my house.
What do you guys think of curfews, are they bad?
First off, local. Sure, if asked I would not support the idea, but it is local. We are a republic and I think if a very few cities try this it is not a threat to our national civil liberties. In fact, in the spirit of the distributed experiments in democracy the Founders envisioned, if there is enough push back and less than concrete positive results, it will not spread. I think we both expect that. It is already happening. Even in NYC their program has been called out for being racist. That is a powerful consideration for the left wing elites who are promoting these things.
In addition, these are not true passports. In all but one example I can find, you just present proof of vaccination. No government data base. Also, these restrictions are almost entirely for leisure activities. Refuse to participate in the Excelsior Pass and you can still leave your home, exercise, buy food at a grocery store., and pretty much live a normal life.
Finally, many of us here question the true extent of the public health risk. But there is no doubt this IS a public health issue. The courts have ruled more than once that the government has an interest in temporary restrictions to liberties associated with the public health.
I do love the idea of asking for a restaurant's staff vaccination proof.
With the less transmissible variants, you guys were able to manage it and basically live a normal life fully open and no death toll while we celebrated our freedoms and lost 600,000+ people. But I don't think the Delta variant is going to let you do that now.
Your choice is going to be some blend of get vaccinated (the winning play), lockdowns and NPIs, and accepting a wave that will be a lot worse what the original variant would have been due to Delta's jacked-up infectiousness.
You guys missed the boat on the vaccine.
It gets down to, in my mind, do you have a right to privacy and liberty or don't you? Do you think a local government (with its own police force that has the power to kill you if you disagree with their mandates) has a right to suspend basic human liberties for some but not for others based on...whatever they want Whatever the public health crisis du jour is.
The CDC director, who is not senate confirmed, is already making statements to the fact that gun violence is a public health crisis. Abusing the interstate commerce clause is so 2000...now we've got the public health crisis excuse to justify huge power grabs by every single level of government.
Now that we declared victory in Afghanistan and Iraq, we can repeal the patriot act and defund the TSA, right? Fat chance, right, because the tendency of government is to accumulate as much power as it can.
Are you in support of a never-ending caste system of who is clean and unclean? There's already been a push to add this to some supermarkets. Getting food might be dependent on your vaxx status and if you don't meet our arbitrary standards for health, we are going to make life more inconvenient for you.
There's also no option for businesses to opt out, so the market can't even provide alternatives...I suspect because the initiative would be a colossal failure if there weren't business-killing fines behind it.
This isn't directed at you, @wink, even though I use "you" a lot. It's just a scary precedent to see how many people are willing to turn over more and more of their lives to a government that has 0 accountability for its failures.
The CDC director, who is not senate confirmed, is already making statements to the fact that gun violence is a public health crisis. Abusing the interstate commerce clause is so 2000...now we've got the public health crisis excuse to justify huge power grabs by every single level of government.
Now that we declared victory in Afghanistan and Iraq, we can repeal the patriot act and defund the TSA, right? Fat chance, right, because the tendency of government is to accumulate as much power as it can.
Are you in support of a never-ending caste system of who is clean and unclean? There's already been a push to add this to some supermarkets. Getting food might be dependent on your vaxx status and if you don't meet our arbitrary standards for health, we are going to make life more inconvenient for you.
There's also no option for businesses to opt out, so the market can't even provide alternatives...I suspect because the initiative would be a colossal failure if there weren't business-killing fines behind it.
This isn't directed at you, @wink, even though I use "you" a lot. It's just a scary precedent to see how many people are willing to turn over more and more of their lives to a government that has 0 accountability for its failures.
Quarantining and restricting freedoms is the oldest anti-pandemic play in the book, because it works. Back to biblical times.
This goes back to an earlier discussion upthread. With the flu, we have tolerated annual death tolls for a hundred plus years, except for the pandemic of 2018, that is. It crossed a line. Not only in quantity of people, but in who it killed (teens and early 20s). We accepted restrictions, and paid for them when they were ignored (Philly parade).
After that, we went back to the normal accepting of some 10s of thousands lost each year. In the noise. No slippery slope permanently slid down.
Enough people thought Covid crossed a line, that we reacted. There is zero doubt in my mind that if the mortality rate was higher, or if it was killing fit young people instead expiring boomers and the obese, a lot of squawling about muh freedoms would not happen. But it just wasn't killing quite enough to get everyone on board.
I think if it had been more deadly, we'd have lost fewer people.
There are a lot of "what ifs" that could have made this thing go a lot better. Some of them are only in hindsight but a few were pretty obvious.
It was easy for Fauci to seem like the smartest guy in the room at the Whitehouse press briefs, all he had to do was say only a little, and it was working out great. He chose to tell a white lie because he thought he knew what was best for us. The neat thing about credibility is once you've lost it then you needn't worry about how hard it is to get it back.
The mainstream media and the fringe media both could have been much more honest brokers instead of building up one side or another. Remember the carefully chosen camera angles showcasing the scary, "crowded" Florida beaches? Those were after it was widely known that fresh air and sunshine are both pretty great preventative measures against the virus. Credibility strikes again, and when it's a news outlet screwing it up then it drives people to their comfortable echo chambers to get their news.
What about the medical establishment defaulting to shoving a rubber tube halfway into people's lungs and setting the breathing machine on max? Later they figured out that when the patient's blood oxygen levels are critically low it might be better to give them medical oxygen to breathe... what a novel concept. Remember when the buzzword was "pronation?" Turns out it's easier for people to breathe in a hospital bed when they're laying on their stomach. It took the healthcare system months into a pandemic to figure that one out? These were some pretty WTF moments and what they did was empower the Dr. YouTube crowd. All the respiratory viruses in the history of the human race, yet the state of the art of modern medicine in early 2020 was "ventilator turned up to 10." It's no wonder that so many people turned elsewhere for answers.
Collectively and speaking of public healthy, if we weren't a nation of fatasses then we'd have lost fewer people. (This one's on all of us but I'm doing my part by trying to make fat shaming great again.)
It's easy to point fingers to the fringe people pushing back, and I happen to agree that a lot of them are pretty kooky (up there with flat earther kooky in many cases), but there's the age-old truth about pointing fingers about fingers pointing back at you.
We haven't been being led by adults, not for the whole time, not last year and not this year either.
I get it. But it is not black and white. It is a continuum from anarchy to a true democracy. We are neither, of course. And at times, and some locales, it slides one way or the other. Sometimes we do recover chastened liberties. It has happened several times over our history. I don't think we are ready to get rid of the TSA or Patriot Act because we are out of Afghanistan. The terrorist threat remains, maybe worse now. Similarly, as long as COVID is considered a public heath crisis, at least some of these restriction will remain. That is why I believe the tactic should not be to bitch about every policy, Fed, State, and local, we disagree with, but to redefine the battlefield. The argument should be that COVID is no longer, or soon will not be, a public health crisis justifying continued restrictions. Arguing about individual polices, restriction effectiveness or abuse of liberties is chasing a field of rabbits down holes. Fight the notion that COVID is a crisis or that living with it requires continued restriction. Win that and the reason for restricting liberties evaporates.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
You mean like the fact that the CFR of COVID-19 is about 1%, but plumments to virtually 0% for people who choose to take a widely available vaccine?
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
So I went to the mall to pick my son up a last minute shirt for tomorrow. Roughly 2/3 of the stores were closed, as in the sign was taken down and they were out of business. Even one of the anchor stores - Macy's. Very sad, and illustrates the very real economic impact of COVID-19 restrictions.
One of the side effects (or maybe it was a feature) of the covid insanity was huge losses for small businesses, low income people (especially students), and huge wins for the billionaires we love to hate and their huge corporations.
We did miss the boat. We bet the farm on Astra, which was cheap and made here. We had token buys with options with other brands. When Pfizer asked us to place a larger order, we said no. The gov was saying it's not a race to get vaccinated and the local manufacturing would get us done by Sept. Then it was found that Astra had a 1 per Million death from clotting. No one wanted it. We asked Pfizer, but order books were full till the last quarter. So this is where we are. With the wave in Sydney, they are now taking the Astra, but there is still a surplus of it.
@Treetop Flyer So it is alright, to limit your freedoms by a curfew. As long as you agree with it.