Those were quite the littoral combat ships back in the day. Talk about intimidating, too. I've heard those shells sounded like freight trains going overhead.
*sigh* I love big guns.
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DDG-1000 dead in the water!
- Thread starter raptor10
- Start date
Those were quite the littoral combat ships back in the day. Talk about intimidating, too. I've heard those shells sounded like freight trains going overhead.
*sigh* I love big guns.
Part of the point is that we don't need everything on the same ship. But having a ship with nothing is not a solution either. When I think of littorals a few places that we have operated or could i fa conflict come to mind, including; Lebanon, Iran, Somalia, North Korea and a few others. All but one have sophisticated ASCM's and two have tactical jets that can reach out and touch US ships. So why hamper a frontline combatant with nothing but pop gun a last ditch weapon system to defend itself?
I am not saying that every ship needs to have a SPY-1 radar, SM-2's and Tomahawks. But they need to have something to defend themselves, like anti-ship missiles and some type of SAM, like the Evolved Sea Sparrow. A small VLS, 24 cell for example, would do fine. And while some of the Euro frigates are expensive, they are quite a bit cheaper than an Arleigh Burke and not too much more than what the LCS's are costing (not what they were projected to cost). For example, the Norweigan Fridtjof Nansen class frigates cost $3 billion total for 5 ships. The Netherlands Navy De Zeven Provincien class destroyers cost $1.6 billion for 4 ships. That is $600 and $400 million a piece, versus $800 mil - $1.3 billion for every Burke and $220/$400 million (projected/actual so far) for the LCS.
So please tell me, how a ship that has a 57mm and some RAM's can give you the same value as some of the Euro frigates and destroyers, that have a lot mor epunch, that are sailing right now. We don't need every ship to be a Cadillac (Aegis) but we certainly don't need a bunch of Ford Fiestas (LCS) either. A nice Honda or F-150 (Euro FFG/DDG) would do a much better job for not too much more money.
Either that, or the SWO's on an LCS will be on the wrong end of a C-801/802 courtesy of Hezbollah or the Revolutionary Guard with only a pop gun and a handful of last-ditch, short-range SAM's that you pray work the first time, or no more LCS. Cost savings aren't going to help you much when your ship is a flaming wreck.
DDG-51 cost:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ddg-51-build.htm
LCS and Euro FFG costs:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...-the-usas-littoral-combat-ship-program-03142/
That's the beauty of CEC, not every ship needs all the sensors.
I'd say Link 16, CEC, GCCS-M, a helo deck, a VLS cell, and 5" gun (s), Sea Ram (the Phalanx/Ram combo) has amazing success against SSMs, even the 22B.
USW is going in the direction where surface ship towed arrays may be negligible, or that same locating capabilty can be provided by other means.
I'd say Link 16, CEC, GCCS-M, a helo deck, a VLS cell, and 5" gun (s), Sea Ram (the Phalanx/Ram combo) has amazing success against SSMs, even the 22B.
USW is going in the direction where surface ship towed arrays may be negligible, or that same locating capabilty can be provided by other means.
We may be reaching the limits of what can be discussed here, but besides other underwater phalises, how else would detection occur? If the P-3s are a no show due to other commitments and the helo can only localize, who's going to hear/see them first? I'm not arguing against your point, just trying to clarify/increase my knowledges.
not trying to be coy, just other non-organic/non-traditional sensors. That's all...
The P-3/MMA/Helo will still be the endgame, but cueing can come from different places/things more efficiently, with more precision, and realtime.
That Tactass gear costs too much, is painful to maintain, and FFG's have a nasty habit of damaging or losing them. Remember how big that room was on the boat?
The P-3/MMA/Helo will still be the endgame, but cueing can come from different places/things more efficiently, with more precision, and realtime.
That Tactass gear costs too much, is painful to maintain, and FFG's have a nasty habit of damaging or losing them. Remember how big that room was on the boat?
That IS the beauty of CEC. A single (working) Burke can provide all the SA a small SAG would need. I maintain that a new build Perry with updates would be more than adequate to perform in the littorals. I think some people in higher places need to stop thinking in terms of revolutionary toys and go towards evolutionary.
It doesn't.
But the Eurofrigates are not particularly impressive in both AAW and USW at the SAME time.
And the diesel/AIP boat threat is more worrisome. Aviation assets and Strike missions(which the Navy has plenty of) can engage surface and air threats at standoff range. If it's a coastal missile battery, a stealthy NSFS platform can return the favor. But a AIP sub threat is not something we can easiliy see coming or even respond to before you get flaming datum.
OK, is this sensor good enough to screen the helo's flight deck from a diesel threat in the littorals? Otherwise I want an active sonar, towed decoys, OTSTs and VLAs to give myself a fighting chance if he starts getting close. Otherwise, you might as well send in an armed amphib, which would give you far more aviation capacity to prosecute contacts.
Seriously speaking, nothing makes a SWO more uncomfortable than a sub. Not having the speed/maneuverability to get away as well as the systems to counterattack would suck.
As for TACTAS, there's your problem. FFGs are BROKE and OLD. If a system breaking/degrading regularly on an older ship is indication of its reliability, there is no single reliable weapon, sensor, or propulsion system in today's surface force. TACTAS room is also not a real space hog on a DDG.
I don't know if newer radars(like promised on DDG-1000) can work this problem out, but SPY on the Burkes goes a little crazy near the coastline, requiring a lot of adjustments by the radar operator.
Everyone has to work harder near the coastline. Train up your people right and do the work. We have adapted a blue water surveillance radar to meet the demand as much as possible, I'm sure SWOs can do the same.
Do the IIA's still carry a SLQ-25 (or similar platform)? What was the reason for getting rid of their TACTAS in the first place?
At least they can do AAW, something the LCS can't. And the problem of doing both at the same time, that could be solved by better systems integration that already exits on US platforms. I was using the costs of the Euro FFG's and their capabilities vs the LCS, when the LCS doesn't cost much less than a Euro FFG and still can't even come close to capability. I still can't figure out why the Navy would bother with glorified minesweepers/hunters for a littoral mission when they would need an escort to protect it in higher threat areas from those threats where is has NO capability.
As for aviation and strike assets, they have been gradually diminishing in numbers for years, and there are never enough. We are already stretching the Navy thin, ask FlyNavy about that, and I don't see the LCS helping out much to relieve the service. We will have a ship that cannot operate independently in higher risk areas, like most of the littorals we are talking about, and can't effectively be a force multiplier like the Navy needs. Even the SWO's working with me today agreed with me (being reservists has softened them in their old age).
You are going to be so concerned about a poorly maintained Kilo that you are not going to see the F-4 and the gunboats with ASCM's that come up your rear and take you out.
That is a common and well-known problem with many radars, making the transition in a coastal environment. And that is why we have radar operators instead of just a computer.
My understanding was that it was removed to make room for the RAST machinery room, but I may be mistaken.
That's a very 80's way at looking at USW. Surface ships going toe-to-toe vs. a USW threat isn't reality.
The current practice is to never allow a diesel get near the HVU PIM in the first place.
I have an idea what makes a SWO/TAO uncomfortable regarding USW.
And any experienced-SWO would have the USW threat negated before they entered the waterspace.
Amphibs have no organic USW capability.
That's how we do business.
The Kidd (DDG-993) Class DDG's came close. They were barely 20 years old when decommed. Taiwan has 'em now. Where do you think they'll use 'em? Pretty sure it is not going to be blue water...