Dear Boss, I quit! A letter to Air Force leadership....

[jollygreen07]

Yeah, they get selected as LT's, but by the time they actually transfer from the DH ride and hit the PC, they're almost always LCDRs.

Not to mention, in SWO-land, LT's pretty much are out of JOPA when they start their first DH tour.

Coasties do something closer to a "Super JO" command tour with their WPBs, though they're still pretty senior LTs. Those cutters are pretty damn bad ass, even if they're painted in ridiculous colors.

Copy all. Quite a difference (no surprise) between av land and black shoe JOPA. The sr LTs are knee-deep in the shenanigans around here. I've flow with a few sub LTs on our ABNCP flights and one of them looked at me funny when I greeted him with a "what's up man?" instead of something more formal.

 

[Flash]

Looks like she was a long-timer at around five months...Geez, some serious turnover there.

A former PC SWO explained to me (IIRC) that they deployed as crews and not ships and that the crews rotated among the different PCs with the deployed PCs turning over crews every few months, and there were more crews than ships. Kinda like an aviation squadron, in the loosest sense........

 

[BackOrdered]

I've flow with a few sub LTs on our ABNCP flights and one of them looked at me funny when I greeted him with a "what's up man?" instead of something more formal.

Tell me about it...

 

[Jim123]

Agreed. Think you could pull a wakeboard behind it though?

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Was thinking along the same lines... Wakeboards, kegs, a grill or three... Oh yeah, and all the guns. Don't forget the guns. I can't imagine those selected to command a PC are the same guys/gals who lead the JOPA charge wherever they go.

You can get away with just about anything... once.

 

[nittany03]

Copy all. Quite a difference (no surprise) between av land and black shoe JOPA. The sr LTs are knee-deep in the shenanigans around here. I've flow with a few sub LTs on our ABNCP flights and one of them looked at me funny when I greeted him with a "what's up man?" instead of something more formal.

Legal O Skool, same same. Tough to get used to an O-1/2 calling you "sir" and an O-4 expecting to be called "ma'am." Though it was entertaining when me and a Marine Hornet guy explained the idea of callsigns to a bunch of Marine boot 2ndLt adjutant types. Our appeal to the OIC for flight suit Friday went precisely nowhere, as well.

 

[Gatordev]

Tough to get used to an O-1/2 calling you "sir" ...

It gets worse as an O-4 (in some communities). You introduce yourself by first name and tell them they don't have to call you sir. Some still do. It gets to a point where it's not worth the energy to correct them all the time. Others "get it."

 

[jollygreen07]

It gets worse as an O-4 (in some communities). You introduce yourself by first name and tell them they don't have to call you sir. Some still do. It gets to a point where it's not worth the energy to correct them all the time. Others "get it."

Meh.. I think the reason that so many JOs dont call hinges by their first names is that while some are cool and are just trying to fit in to the ready room, others don't hesitate to crawl up a JO's ass at the first opportunity that presents itself. I guess it's a matter of guilt by association.

 

[phrogdriver]

Meh.. I think the reason that so many JOs dont call hinges by their first names is ....

....because they shouldn't.

A hinge trying to be too cool with the JOs/company grade is like the guy who goes to college and still hangs out at high school parties.

You don't have to be a dick all the time, but honestly, there'll be a time you have to school a junior guy, and you don't need it to be like,"Dude, I thought we were friends."

Callsigns are cool, especially around briefs/flying (though I've encountered a CO who went apoplectic if a junior referred to a senior by callsign, even in the third person). I've had students go all sir-sandwich on me and I'll tell them to dial it back 50% and just talk like a regular person. Rank goes away when the brief starts (unless it's O-6+ for me, to be honest).

 

[Gatordev]

....because they shouldn't.

A hinge trying to be too cool with the JOs/company grade is like the guy who goes to college and still hangs out at high school parties.

You don't have to be a dick all the time, but honestly, there'll be a time you have to school a junior guy, and you don't need it to be like,"Dude, I thought we were friends."

Callsigns are cool, especially around briefs/flying (though I've encountered a CO who went apoplectic if a junior referred to a senior by callsign, even in the third person). I've had students go all sir-sandwich on me and I'll tell them to dial it back 50% and just talk like a regular person. Rank goes away when the brief starts (unless it's O-6+ for me, to be honest).

I was actually talking about in the briefs/aircraft. Also, the incidents I was referring to (lately) have been a case where I'm no where in anyone's chain of command. Just another dude with wings.

But I do come from a community where it's a bunch of guys who are all, basically, the same "rank" (even if some are O-3s and some are O-4s). And everyone understood that if you're the OIC/DH/whatever, then it's your turn to be the pain in everyone's ass. When it's the next guys' turn, everyone takes one step to the left and follows ranks. Unfortunately, that can be too varsity for some (not directed at you, phrog).

 

[phrogpilot73]

I got what you were saying Gator, and I'll say to phrogdriver that it's different on this side of AD... I keep trying to throttle back our AR (Navy equivalent = FTS) OpsO from the Sir sandwiches... Yes, he's a Capt. Yes, I'm a Major. But in the end of the day - he's the OpsO, and he's got a ton of weight on his shoulders. My discussion with him tonight was "I know that Postal is a LtCol, but he isn't in your chain of command, and doesn't sign your FitRep. Your job is hard enough, herding the reserve cats - don't let him get in the way."

 

[Recovering LSO]

....words

I also wonder if it doesn't have a little to do with the size of a ready room. My experiences have typically been with ready rooms of approximately 20 total aviators (currently 12). With smaller groups has come less formality, however at no point have I ever thought that our JOs don't respond to direction and at no point have I ever felt that us DickHeads didn't have the JOs back - keeping each other from looking stupid in front of the man. We're a close (small) ready room that uses first names and callsigns, however there's no ambiguity WRT roles/responsibilities/accountability/experience/professional respect.

I think this is a fairly typical experience for CVN tac-air squadrons....... Bueller.?

 

[MasterBates]

I had a bit more of the LCDRs are "Sir" in my HSL squadron, and the CO was the fucking wizard of Oz in his office and only seen for AOMs and HAC checks.

VAW was more of the Callsigns/Names, but for a point of reference, I was only a LT for a year in a 42 month tour in HSL (checked in as an Ensign), and was already a senior LT in zone for LCDR when I got to my VAW squadron.

 

[HAL Pilot]

It gets worse as an O-4 (in some communities). You introduce yourself by first name and tell them they don't have to call you sir. Some still do. It gets to a point where it's not worth the energy to correct them all the time. Others "get it."

My DH tour I got called on the carpet by the CO for introducing myself by my first name to the JOs. West coast VP was first name and east coast wasn't. I didn't know this and with my west coast background I did what came naturally. By the end of my first couple of months in the squadron, I realized the east coast guys needed to loosen the ratchet. The CO claimed first names belittled me in the eyes of the JOs yet I was they DH the trusted when things went bad or they needed serious help/advise.

Along a similar line, during my CVN tour I decided to get a SWO pin (aviators could back then). While the carrier was in the yards, I spent a few months TAD to a FFG-7 doing counter drug ops in the Caribbean while learning SWO stuff. Since I was flocked LCDR (another normal thing back then), the FFG-7 CO decided I should basically be the XO under the real XO's guidance. Soon the JOs started avoiding their DHs and the XO and came to me when there was a problem. It wasn't me as much as it was the difference in philosophy between aviation leadership and SWO leadership. They felt I was much more interested in fixing the problem then laying the blame. When I was in my squadron DH tour a few years later, I saw this same difference between the DHs who did east coast JO tours and west coast JO tours. It always seemed to me that the rank conscious always had more of a CYA mentality then those that just accepted everyone knew who was the boss without a constant reminder.

 

[Flash]

In VP and VQ it was dependent on the command and the O-4 but sir was more the norm than not.

In VAQ and the rest of Navy tac-air from what I saw it was callsign for everyone O-4 and below with no sir or ma'am unless you were in deep shit. I think there is a bit of a service difference though too since the Marines in the VMFA and VMAQ squadrons I deployed with didn't play by the same rule book though and sir for O-4s was a lot more common. Callsigns were still used it was more along the lines of what you would see in VP with it being dependent on the person, command and situation.

 

[phrogpilot73]

In Reserve land, it's call signs for everyone other than the CO.