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Declining Commission

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
C) With respect to the TSP matching you mention, while I assume you would argue that it's "free money," it's really not. A military member is free to spend that money on anything they want over the course of their career (a house, travel, beer, etc), whereas the GS has to, effectively, take a pay cut his whole career to garner the TSP payout.
It's not really a pay cut, it's forced retirement savings. A GS is allowed to spend that money (both the employee contributions and the TSP matching) on anything they want over the course of their retirement.

Not to mention the government contributes 1% into TSP even if an employee contributes nothing.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
Agree with your math, thanks for taking the time as I'm definitely not very familiar with GS retirement. I also agree with you that for those not "grandfathered" into the old retirement system (aren't guys that join in the next year or so still grandfathered?) the new system sucks.

My pushback:

A) Most SWOs that "stay in" (for DH) will retire at O-5+. An O-5 @ 20 gets ~ $4,250/month*. O-5 @ 24 gets ~$5,325/month. O-6 @ 30 is ~$8,158. I'm curious as to how this stacks up to GS-14/15 retirements (and also how common...do half of FBI agents retire as GS-14/15)? There's obviously no way to tell how far the OP would rise in the Navy or FBI, but I'm going with the law of averages...chances are he would retire as an O-5 or O-6 if he went career SWO; curious what that looks like for the FBI.

B) Military retirees get VA disability payments, which can be pretty decent for someone with a 20+ year, well-documented medical record.

C) With respect to the TSP matching you mention, while I assume you would argue that it's "free money," it's really not. A military member is free to spend that money on anything they want over the course of their career (a house, travel, beer, etc), whereas the GS has to, effectively, take a pay cut his whole career to garner the TSP payout.

*Note: the military retirements are approximate -- I'm too lazy to calculate out the true High-3 value, I ballparked it, they're pretty close.

As the longevity of someone's career increases in rank and and years of service a current AD retirement starts to pull away the current FERS retirement. The 6c retirements are 1.7%/ year for the first 20, then 1%/ year after until you reach a mandatory retirement age of 57 (waiverable to 60 depending on the position and agency).

I didn't keep track of the new AD retirement system- how does that work?

The old CSRS system that FERS replaced was awesome. 2.5% year of total basic pay for 6c employees, 2%/ year for your standard GS employee. My father got a 6c retirement under the old system and made more money for breathing every day in retirement than I did as an active duty officer until I hit O-3>10 w/ flight pay, sea pay and Norfolk BAH.

But, FERS replaced the old system to force federal employees to pay into yup, you guessed it, social security.

FERS retirement is designed on the idea that a retiree will receive three income streams- The FERS pension, TSP annuity payments and social security payments. The CSRS system the only money came from the pension. FERS was designed and implemented, much like this new Military retirement system, to save the government money... big surprise.

Yeah 5% is free money as long as you're not a total Jabrone and are able to save 5% of your pay. If someone doesn't want to stock away 5% of their pay, they'll still get a 1% agency contribution regardless, but as previously mentioned TSP was originally specifically designed to be an income stream for the FERS retiree so it's almost impossible NOT to find a GS who isn't contributing 5% into their TSP, and many work to max out the annual contribution limits.

Probably the best part of the GS pension system is the numbers I put out aren't for management positions... a dude can be a street agent for an entire career, not have to deal with management/personnel/budget/funding headaches and still make well into a 6 figure salary as a GS-13 and retire. On the aviation side that'd be like being able to spend your entire career as a Super JO. The second best part is there's usually only a 1 year time in grade requirement before individuals competing in the GS system are eligible for promotion, so if a person makes GS-13 in 5 years (which is standard at many Federal Law Enforcement agencies) they can soon start putting their packages together for GS-13 supervisor positions then GS-14 and GS-15 and even Senior Executive Service positions well before their 20 year point. Also there's no such thing as FOSx2 and you're out in GS land. People are free to try to climb the ladder as often as they want, or not at all.

Different strokes for different folks, I was only trying to put some numbers down so the OP knew that a 20 year government career wouldn't hamstring him financially for life if he turned down SWOdom now. That 50% number we put out as AD military is very appealing compared to that 34% number- until you start getting into the fine print and then they're fairly comparable at the 20 year mark as they currently are.

If you want to run the numbers for a new system retirement at the wickets you posted as well as O4/20, I can go back and recalculate for a GS-14 and GS-15 retirement at 20 years, 24 and 30...the numbers won't be as accurate because there's not a set promotion ladder system on them GS side and final % will be based off the persons age (# of years in the system), as well as Annual leave and sick leave bank that they return to the government in exchange for % increase on their retirement check.
 
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azguy

Well-Known Member
None
It's not really a pay cut, it's forced retirement savings. A GS is allowed to spend that money (both the employee contributions and the TSP matching) on anything they want over the course of their retirement.

Not to mention the government contributes 1% into TSP even if an employee contributes nothing.

Agreed to disagree here, but it's fair to count it as an asterisk in your argument because the military system doesn't have anything that's analogous. I think you can definitely count the 1% automatic contribution as part of their pension though.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
As the longevity of someone's career increases in rank and and years of service a current AD retirement starts to pull away...

I'm not familiar enough with the new system to crunch numbers, but overall it's a blended retirement system that sounds very similar to the GS system; a smaller base-pay pension (40% I think), paired with matching TSP contributions, and social security (yeah, we'll see about that part).

In terms of your argument about being a street agent for 20 years. Got it. Many people want to change the USN to be more like that; the Royal Navy generally functions like that I think. Either way, it's immaterial to the argument, these are different organizational systems that aren't related to retirement pay.

To your "free money" argument, see my post above.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
To your "free money" argument, see my post above.

The biggest difference between FERS TSP and AD TSP is that FERS employees understand it's part of their retirement package income stream from day 1, where as it's always been optional for military (actually I think TSP wasn't even an option for AD military and CSRS employees until around the time I commissioned And then the services initially limited it to I think a 9% contribution to prevent non FERS members from saving/ deferring taxes on too much money). As far as I'm aware FERS folk opt out of it even if they wanted to, they have an account setup for them via their agency when they start and understand the rules of the game require them to fund part of their own retirement via the TSP program and in order to get the agency match/free money/ whatever you want to call it, it's required that they contribute their 5%.

With FERS the government moved to shift a large portion of retirement funding to the individual employee via reduced % of pay, the 5% match was designed to force
/entice people to contribute to their own retirement funds to ease the economic burden of the government.

Looks like under the new military retirement system, Service members receive 1% automatic contributions 60 days after they start and have to wait 3 years for the other 4% matching funds to kick in which is total bullshit for a system allegedly designed to force/ encourage members to fund part of their own retirement.
 

TimLee

New Member
Then after a couple of years, apply as a USNR Intel DCO.

This sounds like a good idea... But wouldn't it look negatively on me, since I would have declined SWO before? Even if I did, would I be able to tell my current recruiter that's something I'd like to do going forward?
 

TimLee

New Member
I'm not familiar enough with the new system to crunch numbers, but overall it's a blended retirement system that sounds very similar to the GS system; a smaller base-pay pension (40% I think), paired with matching TSP contributions, and social security (yeah, we'll see about that part).

In terms of your argument about being a street agent for 20 years. Got it. Many people want to change the USN to be more like that; the Royal Navy generally functions like that I think. Either way, it's immaterial to the argument, these are different organizational systems that aren't related to retirement pay.

To your "free money" argument, see my post above.

I actually know a couple of Feds in the area, who retired from their respective agency, and ended up working for a local or state agency, and ended up getting a double pension by the time they were in their early to mid 60s. At they end, I believe some of them were getting near a $100K+ annually in retirement, some of which were exempt from state and local taxes
 

AQ-AT-NAVCIV

Citizen Sailor, Gentleman Farmer
This sounds like a good idea... But wouldn't it look negatively on me, since I would have declined SWO before? Even if I did, would I be able to tell my current recruiter that's something I'd like to do going forward?

Not sure that would even come up when applying for DCO, but a good federal agency resume, LOR's and Community interviews would make you competitive. Maybe knock out a grad degree, but I know intel guys who made it even without one.
 

Rockriver

Well-Known Member
pilot
TimLee, is this all about the money? You are chasing the wrong things, brother. Extrinsic rewards such as money, company cars, good retirement systems, nice working facilities, will never measure up to intrinsic rewards such as job satisfaction, personal accomplishment, pride in yourself and what you do with your life. If you want to make some real cash, forget the military and forget federal law enforcement and get an MBA move to Wall Street.

I spent several years as a Naval Aviator and then worked over two decades in federal law enforcement. I certainly made more money as an agent, had a take home G-Ride, got to do some interesting things and had tremendous job security. But it never quite matched the satisfaction I felt being in the Navy. I learned a lot and grew as a man, and those talents certainly helped me in my personal life and federal career. Don't toss away your chance of getting a commission lightly, or you may wonder what you missed as you approach retirement age. That federal LEO job will be there in the future - just be cognizant of the age limitation and understand that getting picked up can take a year or so, depending on whether or not Congress has frozen agency budgets, which comes and goes but is commonplace.

You will be even more competitive for a federal LEO slot after your commissioned service. The old KSAs (knowledge, skills, abilities) that federal hiring board measure will be stronger. Folks reviewing your application will look for leadership experience, communication skills (think writing enlisted evals, giving squadron presentations, briefing field and flag grade personnel), etc. If you have the opportunity to gain some law enforcement-related experience (legal officer), you'll get points for that. While law enforcement investigations are a different animal, any investigative experience you gain, be it an accident or a JAG investigation, puts you ahead of other competitors. If a federal agency wants you now, they will want you even more after a military tour.

There has been lots of discussion in this thread about FERS retirement. Yeah, you'll get 34% for twenty years, but you can't retire on that. The key is to max out the TSP and never look back. Don't borrow from it for any reason. Get your loans elsewhere. Consider that money sacred and you'll have a great retirement. It is not hard to retire at a 100% equivalent of your salary with some planning and discipline.

You will find many former military members within federal law enforcement. The sense of community is similar, but not quite as tight, and you will miss that post Navy.

The final kicker - the federal government is the only employer I know of that will give you some credit for time served in the military. You will reach the point were you earn 8 hours of annual leave for every 2 weeks worked before your civilian colleagues do. But the best thing is the retirement credit. You can "buy back" your military retirement for a small percentage of your total base pay and for annuity computation purposes, you receive an additional 1% for each year you served. As noted earlier, if you retire from federal 6c service at 20 years you would see 34% of your base pay as your OPM annuity. It you have 5 years of military service (or prior federal or postal service), you could buy that back and change that 34% to 39%. Try doing that elsewhere! Back in the early 90's, I bought back 9 years of combined military and postal service (had a part time job when I was 19). My 34% was bumped up to 43% and will remain that way until I die, and then my wife gets it all. I paid about $4500 to buy my time back and I get about an additional $13K yearly.

Im my life I got to chase both Soviets and Colombians and wouldn't trade the experience for anything. My suggestion...Forget the cash for now. Accept the commission, kick some ass, learn some things, and have some sea stories to tell to your kids and grandkids. After a few years, go chase bad guys and kick in some doors. Stay in the reserves. In this case, you can have it all.
 
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TimLee

New Member
TimLee, is this all about the money? You are chasing the wrong things, brother. Extrinsic rewards such as money, company cars, good retirement systems, nice working facilities, will never measure up to intrinsic rewards such as job satisfaction, personal accomplishment, pride in yourself and what you do with your life. If you want to make some real cash, forget the military and forget federal law enforcement and get an MBA move to Wall Street.

I spent several years as a Naval Aviator and then worked over two decades in federal law enforcement. I certainly made more money as an agent, had a take home G-Ride, got to do some interesting things and had tremendous job security. But it never quite matched the satisfaction I felt being in the Navy. I learned a lot and grew as a man, and those talents certainly helped me in my personal life and federal career. Don't toss away your chance of getting a commission lightly, or you may wonder what you missed as you approach retirement age. That federal LEO job will be there in the future - just be cognizant of the age limitation and understand that getting picked up can take a year or so, depending on whether or not Congress has frozen agency budgets, which comes and goes but is commonplace.

You will be even more competitive for a federal LEO slot after your commissioned service. The old KSAs (knowledge, skills, abilities) that federal hiring board measure will be stronger. Folks reviewing your application will look for leadership experience, communication skills (think writing enlisted evals, giving squadron presentations, briefing field and flag grade personnel), etc. If you have the opportunity to gain some law enforcement-related experience (legal officer), you'll get points for that. While law enforcement investigations are a different animal, any investigative experience you gain, be it an accident or a JAG investigation, puts you ahead of other competitors. If a federal agency wants you now, they will want you even more after a military tour.

There has been lots of discussion in this thread about FERS retirement. Yeah, you'll get 34% for twenty years, but you can't retire on that. The key is to max out the TSP and never look back. Don't borrow from it for any reason. Get your loans elsewhere. Consider that money sacred and you'll have a great retirement. It is not hard to retire at a 100% equivalent of your salary with some planning and discipline.

You will find many former military members within federal law enforcement. The sense of community is similar, but not quite as tight, and you will miss that post Navy.

The final kicker - the federal government is the only employer I know of that will give you some credit for time served in the military. You will reach the point were you earn 8 hours of annual leave for every 2 weeks worked before your civilian colleagues do. But the best thing is the retirement credit. You can "buy back" your military retirement for a small percentage of your total base pay and for annuity computation purposes, you receive an additional 1% for each year you served. As noted earlier, if you retire from federal 6c service at 20 years you would see 34% of your base pay as your OPM annuity. It you have 5 years of military service (or prior federal or postal service), you could buy that back and change that 34% to 39%. Try doing that elsewhere! Back in the early 90's, I bought back 9 years of combined military and postal service (had a part time job when I was 19). My 34% was bumped up to 43% and will remain that way until I die, and then my wife gets it all. I paid about $4500 to buy my time back and I get about an additional $13K yearly.

Im my life I got to chase both Soviets and Colombians and wouldn't trade the experience for anything. My suggestion...Forget the cash for now. Accept the commission, kick some ass, learn some things, and have some sea stories to tell to your kids and grandkids. After a few years, go chase bad guys and kick in some doors. Stay in the reserves. In this case, you can have it all.

Thanks for that perspective. I'm not doing it for the money. I'd love to be part of the military, especially within the Intel community. The downside to my situation however, was I didn't make Intel, but I did accepted into a pretty good federal LEO agency where I'll get to work as an 1811, stay in the city, equal travel opportunities, apply my degree and skills, and get additional training and intelligence experience. After reviewing everything, I realized I wouldn't get those same opportunities as a SWO. I will probably follow the advice of AQ-AT-NAVCIV, and re-apply to the Intel DCO reserve program in a few years, where I think I can be a better shot than I was now
 
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