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Deployed MEU's getting M-4 Carbine?

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
xmid said:
Real M-4's actually have a 14.5 inch barrel but I dont want to seem nit picky. I read alot about the testing of the prototypes and they found out that 14.5 inches was actually the shortest barrel with the least amount of energy/accuracy lost. I don't remember the exact statistics, but I wanna say the 14.5 inch barrel only losses 300 fps over the 20 incher. The army has had some problems with the barrels cracking from hard impacts, like landing under a parachute. The M-4's barrel is actually contoured to be slimmer under the hand guards so that it dissapates (sp?) heat better. With the m203 slung under it it creates stress fractures on the contact points. Rumor has it that the Marine Corps got wind of that and didnt want to deal with the expense of buying them and then worry about replacing barrels when they where thrown around.

That 300 fps may not seem like a big deal, but with M855 ammo, it IS. Out of the 14.5" M-4 barrel, that M855 ammo loses its fragmentation ability very quickly. Out of a 10.5" barrel, it's pitiful.

All you ever wanted to know about 5.56x45mm and .223 Remington (yes, they are different)

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

I use M193 in my 20" AR-15 and my 16" M4orgery.
 

xmid

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
Right I understand the problems with ammo, but with your own upper on your issued m-16 you wouldnt have any ammo problems. I have a feeling they wouldnt let you mess with your issued rifle like that, but I figured I'd ask anyway. As for bringing a .45 or whatever, considering you probably will fire your pistol rarely if at all, a couple of 100rd boxes would hold you over for quite a while. I am just wondering what the regs are over stuff like that.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
xmid said:
.....a .45 or whatever .......I am just wondering what the regs are over stuff like that.

I'm sure they've tightened up these days .... but here's an example of what it was like in the late '60's from the HAL-3 website .... this instruction and others of similar vein were generally ignored and we brought our own personal sidearms along ... a ".45 or whatever" in my case ... :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From: Commanding Officer, Helicopter Attack (Light) Squadron Three
To: All Hands
Subj: Privately owned firearms; possession of
Ref: (a) NAVFORV Instruction 8020.1A

1. In accordance with reference (a), the possession of privately owned firerms or other dangerous weapons in Vietnam by US Forces personnal is prohibited. US Armed Forces personnel are prohibited from importing, mailing, carrying or otherwise introducing into RVN, and from obtaining by any means within RVN, privately owned firearms or other dangerous weapons.

2. Privately owned firearms ot other dangerous weapons presently in the possession of squadron personnal shall be placed in the custody of the Squadron Weapons Officer. A register will be maintained with the complete details as to the description, serial number, etc. and owners name. Weapons will be released to the individual only when weapon is being returned or shipped to the United States in accordance with the provisions of reference (a) and other directives.

3. The below declararion certificate will be executed by all hands and will be incorporated into the officer and enlisted check-in proceedures. Any person in posession of a privately owned firearm after 31 August 1968 will be prosecuted.

-------------------------------------------------------
DECLARATION CERTIFICATE
__________Date

From:_________________________________________________
(Name) (Rank) (Service #)
To: Commanding Officer, Helicopter Attack (Light) Squadron Three
Subj: Privately owned firearms; possession of

1. I do not own or have in my possession in Vietnam, any privately owned firearms.
___________________________
 

JZAB

Livin the MEU life
pilot
Hey I spent 5 years in the Army. The M-4 is the standard issue for most (ALL) infantry units. Even the old guard the (Army’s ceremonial unit in DC have them) but they do rotations to the horn of Africa. Overall they are great for CQB but not that great for anything over 300 meters. Don't get me wrong they are a good weapon to have in a squad but, still working out ways to mount the M-203 (grenade launcher) 40mm.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Oh yeah ... one more thing .... don't you-all think the Corps should consider renaming a "MEU" to something, well, you know .... a little more "tiger-ish" ??? I mean .... "MEU" .... as in "meow"??? Puh-leeeease --- come on. Chesty would be spinning in his grave. :)

ChestyPuller.jpg


"Paper-work will ruin any military force"
- Lieutenant-General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em."
- Lieutenant-General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller


"there are not enough Chinamen in the world to stop a fully armed Marine regiment from going where ever they wont to go"
- Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
 

gaijin6423

Ask me about ninjas!
You know, it may not make sense to you, but it's probably 'MEU' for a reason. The Man, Himself, kept a little black book of shit he didn't like or that didn't make sense when He was a private. He's reported to have noted that almost everything was crossed off by the time He reached LtGen.

I notice that the picture you posted is autographed? I knew you were old, A4s, but I didn't know you were THAT old.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
JZAB said:
Hey I spent 5 years in the Army. The M-4 is the standard issue for most (ALL) infantry units. Even the old guard the (Army’s ceremonial unit in DC have them) but they do rotations to the horn of Africa. Overall they are great for CQB but not that great for anything over 300 meters. Don't get me wrong they are a good weapon to have in a squad but, still working out ways to mount the M-203 (grenade launcher) 40mm.

I've read quotes from people who seem to know a lot about these things that 300 meters is about the max distance you would ever engage an enemy at with a rifle..
 

squeeze

Retired Harrier Dude
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
JZAB said:
Hey I spent 5 years in the Army. The M-4 is the standard issue for most (ALL) infantry units. Even the old guard the (Army’s ceremonial unit in DC have them) but they do rotations to the horn of Africa. Overall they are great for CQB but not that great for anything over 300 meters. Don't get me wrong they are a good weapon to have in a squad but, still working out ways to mount the M-203 (grenade launcher) 40mm.

1) The vast majority of combat engagements are inside of 300m (forget the actual statistic)

2) That is a result of the 1:7 twist and the 62gr M855 round not playing well together. I have no problem at 300+ meters with my 1:9 M4gery.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
stevew said:
so an M4 with a 20'' barrel will yield the same results as an M-16?

An M-4 with a 20" barrel is not really an M-4 anymore. It's just a short handguard long barrel... would look weird.

M-4 = 14.5" barrel (16" for civilian unless you go the NFA route), short handguards, collapsable stock, and in the A1 variant, a removable carry handle. Oh, and one of them, either the M-4 or the M-4A1 (I can never remember) has full-auto and the other has 3-round burst.
 

TransAmatt

Registered User
Fly Navy said:
Oh, and one of them, either the M-4 or the M-4A1 (I can never remember) has full-auto and the other has 3-round burst.

The M4 has 3 burst, like the M16A2. The M4A1 has full auto.

Matt
 

bigfish

I can always fall back on my SAW skills
pilot
I've been everything from rifleman to acting platoon seargent in a Marine grunt unit and to answer your question xmid, I highly doubt that scenerio has or will play out with any Marine infantry units. I can't speak to recon or STA or any of those guys, but in the straight infantry units you'll used what your issued and stop asking so many fvcking questions. I haven't been to combat with the crunchies, but I really can't see any drastic changes occuring just from going in-country. The problem is not just ammo, it's all the parts of the weapon. What if a gas tube gets bent, or any other of the parts that can't be replace with M-16 parts. Also, what are they going to do with their stock upper recievers, leave them in the states, maybe throw them in a seabag. I can tell you niether of those options is going to give a CO, much less the battalion Gunner, (W-O weapons specialist) a warm fuzzy. I'm sure some swaps like you discuss have happened, but I'm 99.9% positive they were not officially sanctioned. We are talking about Marines, if they see a better solution they'll figure out a way to get what they want not matter what is officialy allowed.

That being said, thank God we are getting the M-4. I can't believe it since we just sank all that money into M-16A4s. I hope all the grunt units get these weapons. The long-range kill factor is a non-player in todays battle field. I'd like to see some numbers on how many enemies we've actually engaged past the 300 meter mark. I'd put money that the majority of our engagements have been inside 100 meters. A 550 point target capability isn't doing much good at that point. Not to mention each squad (TO) still has three weapons with an 800 meter point target capability in the SAW. Plus it's got bipods. I gaurantee a good SAW gunner can reach out and hit any target he needs to at 500-700 meters. If your engaging a soft target that far away that is carrying Eastern block family weapons, I highly doubt your SAW gunner is too busy to make the shot. It is very unlikely that your typical enemy soldier with AK derivative will be able to reach you consistently at 300 meters.

I'm excited about the M-4 because I was also a MOUT (Military Operations Urban Terrain) instructor and the M-16 is a cumbersome weapon to try to clear rooms with. Four inches doesn't sound like a lot but in a MOUT environment you often feel like a stiffy could be the difference between adequate cover and being left out in the open.

I was going to stop my rant there but then I remebered FlyNavy mentioning the fragmentation ability of the round. The penetrating power of our weapons versus the Eastern block family of weapons is truely scary. In TBS they showed us video of ballistic tests of the different types of weapons. The AK-47 round went through a ciderblock wall, through a metal filing cabinet, through a dummy wearing a flack jacket and out the wooden back wall. It also went through a brick wall, all the other stuff but lodged in the back wall. The M-16 took something like 15 rounds fired in the exact same point (weapon was mounted) to get any penetration through cinder block. Even the 240G (7.62mm) took five round to penetrate the cinderblock wall and took 15 to penetrate the brick. They tried to sell this to us as an advatage because we didn't have to worry as much about collateral damage but I say BS. If I'm in a firefight my main concern is getting as many hot pieces of lead as possible into the other guys body as quickly as possible. Long story short (too late) I agree that the 5.56 may not have been the ideal choice. In a day and age when we're dropping hellfires, TOWs, JDAMs and abunch of other munitions that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars a piece would it really be so outragous to completely revamp the shoulder fired weapons that our young men go into harms way with every single day?
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
^ Good stuff, 'Fish ... keep it coming when the mood stikes you. Welcome to the world of blue skies and white puffy clouds .....
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
bigfish said:
The long-range kill factor is a non-player in todays battle field. I'd like to see some numbers on how many enemies we've actually engaged past the 300 meter mark. I'd put money that the majority of our engagements have been inside 100 meters.

You're right, the reports show that in Iraq, most engagements are in the 100m range, or less. In Afghanistan this is not always the case. They have seen some much longer range engagements, 300m+. That 20" barrely comes in handy there, as past 300m, the 14.5" barrels really suffer.

It is very unlikely that your typical enemy soldier with AK derivative will be able to reach you consistently at 300 meters.

True. A well made AK with a trained shooter though can reach out and touch you just like you, as a Marine, could reach out and touch them. Good thing is, getting that combination with our current enemy seems far and few between. :)

I was going to stop my rant there but then I remebered FlyNavy mentioning the fragmentation ability of the round. The penetrating power of our weapons versus the Eastern block family of weapons is truely scary. In TBS they showed us video of ballistic tests of the different types of weapons. The AK-47 round went through a ciderblock wall, through a metal filing cabinet, through a dummy wearing a flack jacket and out the wooden back wall. It also went through a brick wall, all the other stuff but lodged in the back wall. The M-16 took something like 15 rounds fired in the exact same point (weapon was mounted) to get any penetration through cinder block. Even the 240G (7.62mm) took five round to penetrate the cinderblock wall and took 15 to penetrate the brick.

I'm curious, do you remember the range (distance) that these were shot at? .30-06, which is not much different than 7.62x51mm, was great at eating up cinder blocks and bricks, especially in the steel core armor piercing stuff. What kind of ammunition were they using? A lot of Eastern Bloc stuff is heavy on the steel, which is much better than lead for penetration. I've seen pictures of 5.56mm busting through cinder blocks and bricks... guess it just depends on range, ammo, etc. Then again, not all cinder blocks and bricks are created equal.

Good post dude, welcome to the gun-nuts of AW.
 

bigfish

I can always fall back on my SAW skills
pilot
I do not remember the range the different weapons were fired from. I do know that I've run ranges with soviet weapons, now granted they were pretty tired so I'm sure the range was decreased but none of the squads in the competition (all Marines) had much luck hitting targets outside 300 meters. Inside 200 we were tearing it up though. We just need some marksmen like they have in the movies that can hit moving tagets at 200 meters with a 9mm, that's some sweet shooting. Often while rolling too.
 
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