How far up the chain do you go before pinning the tail on the donkey? Fire the president? He's his boss, too!
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Deployment video causing heat for Enterprise Skipper
- Thread starter HercDriver
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How far up the chain do you go before pinning the tail on the donkey? Fire the president? He's his boss, too!
So let me get the story straight. The current CO of Enterprise was fired because of MWR-intended actions that were tacitly sanctioned five years ago by flag officers while CAPT Honors was the XO?
It doesn't matter if the content of this video is what you'd expect from some members of the JOPA. It only became a "problem" for the Navy when it was made public, and it was only then that the Navy Donald Trump'ed him.
You see, it's all there. You can't be a person. Ever. You have to be a professional living to the highest standards--always. Better not joke about anything ever... You can have morale without humor, right?
It doesn't matter if the content of this video is what you'd expect from some members of the JOPA. It only became a "problem" for the Navy when it was made public, and it was only then that the Navy Donald Trump'ed him.
Good point. However, the Navy's Core Values have been... modified since 2006. I believe it was in 2008 that the new Navy Ethos was 'codified' into this lovely gem:
THE NAVY ETHOS
We are the United States Navy, our Nation's sea power - ready guardians of peace, victorious in war.
We are professional Sailors and Civilians - a diverse and agile force exemplifying the highest standards of service to our Nation, at home and abroad, at sea and ashore.
Integrity is the foundation of our conduct; respect for others is fundamental to our character; decisive leadership is crucial to our success.
We are a team, disciplined and well-prepared, committed to mission accomplishment. We do not waver in our dedication and accountability to our shipmates and families.
We are patriots, forged by the Navy's core values of Honor, Courage and Commitment. In times of war and peace, our actions reflect our proud heritage and tradition.
We defend our Nation and prevail in the face of adversity with strength, determination, and dignity.
We are the United States Navy.
(Emphasis mine.)We are the United States Navy, our Nation's sea power - ready guardians of peace, victorious in war.
We are professional Sailors and Civilians - a diverse and agile force exemplifying the highest standards of service to our Nation, at home and abroad, at sea and ashore.
Integrity is the foundation of our conduct; respect for others is fundamental to our character; decisive leadership is crucial to our success.
We are a team, disciplined and well-prepared, committed to mission accomplishment. We do not waver in our dedication and accountability to our shipmates and families.
We are patriots, forged by the Navy's core values of Honor, Courage and Commitment. In times of war and peace, our actions reflect our proud heritage and tradition.
We defend our Nation and prevail in the face of adversity with strength, determination, and dignity.
We are the United States Navy.
You see, it's all there. You can't be a person. Ever. You have to be a professional living to the highest standards--always. Better not joke about anything ever... You can have morale without humor, right?
I think you are asking A4, BTW.
I'm guessing his answer would be that all the good ones left along with him, and the douchenozzles who stayed are now in charge. Maybe that's the case for staying, too, though--if you don't fix the system, who will? One could go round and round on that one.
His superiors would say that they are defending the interests of the Navy over the interests of one man. In reality, though, the Navy is composed of people, and if you don't shepherd them, then what good is any of it?
Truth be told, the more things change.... In peacetime militaries, leaders get rewarded not for doing great things, but for NOT having bad things happen. You could say that we aren't at peace, and you'd be right, but for a couple of factors. One, a big part of the military may as well be at peace while a small portion fights the war. Two, the nature of this war lends itself to an erroneous view--there are few hills to take in heroic charges or bridges to strike in daring airstrikes, but there are lots of ways your troops can get a leader in trouble on YouTube. Still, the ass-kissing archetype has always been around. Read Once an Eagle for a character study in contrasts on that subject.
Speaking of liberals.... ITS NOT LIKE HE GOT A HUMMER IN THE OVAL OFFICE, AND RUINED SOME GOOD CIGARS AND A FAT GIRLS DRESS!!! How does the leader of the free world NOT "get held to a higher standard" but this man who actually does the thankless, dirty, dangerous work of creating the free world DOES? How do Bill's actions speak for women's lib? How do Bill's policies speak for gay rights? And Bill did not get "retired" and is still revered by many (apparently)....
Most American People are mindless lemmings, barelly worth defending anymore.
Most American People are mindless lemmings, barelly worth defending anymore.
Stan McChrystal didn't get fired for what he said (his leak of the Afghanistan assessment was far more direct insubordination than a few off-color comments by his staffers), he got fired because it was made so blatantly public that it could not go unpunished. Reportedly (I've not kept up on every detail so correct me if I'm wrong), the CAPT was directed to cease the videos and did, so they weren't exactly sanctioned.
Those of you calling for the Admirals' heads are probably going to make it worse - you'll discourage commanders from going easy on guys for fear they'll face the hammer down the road. If they sanctioned it, they should stick up for him, but seeing as someone told him to stop, they probably didn't.
Perception matters. Not so much for LT Schmucatelli, but definitely for the front office.
If it'd been anybody else - Cabinet member, VP, whatnot, they probably would have gotten axed. There's no one to fire the president (or a senator - see Gary Condit) and impeachment was not the tool for a moral transgression.
If you think so little of the American people, you're probably right to get out. No snark intended.
I fully agree that the captain was a meathead for making the videos, as much as I admire his chutzpah.
However, if it's supposedly wrong now, it should have been wrong four years ago. That the "leadership" is only upset when it becomes news shows that their concern is not the sailors who were supposedly offended, but their own asses. I thought selflessness was one of the values we were supposed to enshrine in this business.
Hmm, I could go back and forth on this; it's a leadership challenge for his bosses.
If he was told to stop in 2007, then it was acknowledged to be wrong then; the only difference is whether or not he needed to be relieved (or not given the command to begin with).
What McChrystal did in leaking his assessment and his speech in London was wrong too, but he was indispensable and the administration felt it was better to keep him in the job; Gates reportedly had quite a few pointed words for him after the London speech. After the Rolling Stone article, not so indispensible.
At that level, what's fair for the individual gets outshadowed by what's best for the institution. This is a personnel decision more than it is a punishment for him personally, and dissemination of that video does affect it as a personnel decision.
If he was told to stop in 2007, then it was acknowledged to be wrong then; the only difference is whether or not he needed to be relieved (or not given the command to begin with).
What McChrystal did in leaking his assessment and his speech in London was wrong too, but he was indispensable and the administration felt it was better to keep him in the job; Gates reportedly had quite a few pointed words for him after the London speech. After the Rolling Stone article, not so indispensible.
At that level, what's fair for the individual gets outshadowed by what's best for the institution. This is a personnel decision more than it is a punishment for him personally, and dissemination of that video does affect it as a personnel decision.
I am not aware that OP was ever reprimanded for making these "movie night" vids. I'll have to ask a buddy who was on the 06 cruise for confirmation. I'd be surprised if there hadn't been a pre-screening for RADM Halloway, ( now 2nd FLT ) prior to showing the whole crew.
Ah, the power of the Internet! The support page for CAPT Honors contnues to grow explosively. He now has 18,921 "like" votes. Link
Makes me sick to my stomach to see yet another PC Overkill to satisfy the media and a minority group agenda and bloodlust for revenge/equal rights. Smacks of the Tailhook witch hunt that was fed by media frenzy that resulted in career after career being sacrificed merely for being in a command position that hosted an admin even when nothing happened in their particular room. Reading the news release from USFFC, it appears that CAPT Honors may not be the only casualty as investigation is being conducted to see what other senior officers aboard sanctioned the videos.The Enterprise CO at the time (now Rear Admiral Rice) is on terminal leave so they can still reach out and touch him, but not publicly disgrace him like they have done to an outstanding CO in command.
Makes me sick to my stomach to see yet another PC Overkill to satisfy the media and a minority group agenda and bloodlust for revenge/equal rights. Smacks of the Tailhook witch hunt that was fed by media frenzy that resulted in career after career being sacrificed merely for being in a command position that hosted an admin even when nothing happened in their particular room. Reading the news release from USFFC, it appears that CAPT Honors may not be the only casualty as investigation is being conducted to see what other senior officers aboard sanctioned the videos.The Enterprise CO at the time (now Rear Admiral Rice) is on terminal leave so they can still reach out and touch him, but not publicly disgrace him like they have done to an outstanding CO in command.
What do you really know about the front office? Are you telling me that you know how the upper echelon of a CVN command works, if not then stop spewing the shit that is coming out of your mouth. Last I checked, no one is forced to attend or watch the XO movie night. If you don't like it, go to bed, or play chess, or sit in your undies and read a book. But don't hang out with the warriors.
I can't stand when people throw the word PROFESSIONAL around in the military and act like we are supposed to act like bankers. Let me be very clear what professional means in my business. KILLING. It is either bombs on target, on time, first past, or the ability to clear the air of any air threat, by killing them. Everyday, I practice to be the most professional killer I can be. Everything else is just admin and fluff. There is no way in hell I want to hold those protecting and defending our country to the same standard as those who run our financial markets. To guys like MMX1, if you don't like the warrior ethos, then you get out. Don't stick around and continue to pussify my military. When the shit hits the fan with some Asian country, trying to flex their world muscles, I don't want a bunch of pussy, pc tools fighting next to me, I want killers.
How can an Admiral lose confidence in a commanding officer for something he did years before he became commanding officer? (not to mention that ~6,000 people knew the video existed)
Guess that means our CO selection process is fucked up, because if it was this bad it should've been annotated on fitreps and seen on selection boards.
Oh well.
Guess that means our CO selection process is fucked up, because if it was this bad it should've been annotated on fitreps and seen on selection boards.
Oh well.
CDR Greg Tritt is a great guy and the Tailhook investigation not only destroyed his career but damn near destroyed his life with the cost of the defense he had to put up and in the end there was nothing actionable found. Tailhook was only the intial nail and the Navy is continuing to pound away on the retention/culture coffin.
We're taught here at OCS that the reason that Tailhook took out so many high ranking figures is because the investigation itself was corrupt and people were trying the slip things under the rug. And when that was opened up, the shit really hit the fan. Supposedly, if people had just acknowledged their wrongdoing or whatever and accepted the idea that they needed to work toward a more professional environment, it would have turned out for the better. From the postings above, it sounds like we're getting taught a narrow viewpoint.
And, there's a lot of warrior ethos vs. warrior-monk ethos in this thread and I'm not experienced enough to fight the good fight on either side, but I'm curious why it's looked down upon by the warrior ethos side to be a professional killer AND a professional gentlemen/lady. I would absolutely prefer a professional killer at my side in battle than a pansy that knows how to give a proper toast, but what's wrong with striving for both?
And, there's a lot of warrior ethos vs. warrior-monk ethos in this thread and I'm not experienced enough to fight the good fight on either side, but I'm curious why it's looked down upon by the warrior ethos side to be a professional killer AND a professional gentlemen/lady. I would absolutely prefer a professional killer at my side in battle than a pansy that knows how to give a proper toast, but what's wrong with striving for both?
Nothing, and optimally everyone would be both. The question is what happens when someone is a professional killer, and isn't a professional gentleman/lady. Should they be thrown out, or should their leadership/warfighting skills be retained? That level of skill is not that common that we should be that cavalier with it.
Seems to me anyone in a leadership position there (maybe O-5s and up?) either felt uncomfortable, and should have raised questions at the time, or didn't feel uncomfortable, and should be speaking up now. The former may have happened, and we aren't aware of it. The latter doesn't seem to be happening - probably because of the career repercussions that would be likely. It's easy for me to say this, sitting on the sidelines with nothing personal at stake, but I think that is what is needed.
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