• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Diversity... what you need to know

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
I am not touching the topic of this thread with a 10 foot pole.
Why not? Just curious. I think an open and honest discussion on this topic is long overdue and the attitude of making race and gender an untouchable topic is partially to blame for the diversity crusade that is currently underway.

For the record, I am not anti-anyone. I just believe that promotion and opportunity should be based purely on performance. I have selected and screened for every wicket on my first go, mainly due to hard work and great timing.
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
...just like many folks identify themselves as Irish-American because their great-grandfather came over from the old country 120 years ago...
Hey…it was my GRANDfather…but your math is almost precisely correct. Never made a difference, however...;)
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
Why not? Just curious. I think an open and honest discussion on this topic is long overdue and the attitude of making race and gender an untouchable topic is partially to blame for the diversity crusade that is currently underway.

For the record, I am not anti-anyone. I just believe that promotion and opportunity should be based purely on performance. I have selected and screened for every wicket on my first go, mainly due to hard work and great timing.
Join the club…I doubt anyone else on the forum is "anti-anyone" either. But the issues of race and gender in America remain, at least for now, untouchable topics. Academia…the military…corporate America (including, I assume, "the show"). Talk about it (carefully) all you want…but don't expect change anytime soon.

Your personal approach to the issue is best…hard work gets rewarded…depending on the timing.
 
Last edited:
Why not? Just curious. I think an open and honest discussion on this topic is long overdue and the attitude of making race and gender an untouchable topic is partially to blame for the diversity crusade that is currently underway.

For the record, I am not anti-anyone. I just believe that promotion and opportunity should be based purely on performance. I have selected and screened for every wicket on my first go, mainly due to hard work and great timing.

I feel like giving a dissenting opinion on this issue in a public forum could adversely affect one's career. I could be wrong.
 

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
I feel like giving a dissenting opinion on this issue in a public forum could adversely affect one's career. I could be wrong.
You are wise...my terminal date is around the corner, hence my cavalier attitude about the whole thing. I am not saying anything that anyone in leadership doesn't know, even if they don't care to admit it. Agreed though, public forums and all electronic media for that matter are a public record. There goes my shot at congress.

The sad part of the whole stupid thing is that it most hurts the 90 percent of the "diverse" crowd who are out there doing it the right way (busting their asses and not calling any attention to their race or sex) by lumping them in with the whole "diversity mania" that DC and Millington seem so infatuated with.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
In this age, it is a disadvantage to be a white male.
Strongly disagree.

There are still people in this day and age who won't hire blacks because once upon a time they hired a black person who fit the stereotype and was nearly imposisble to fire. They can get away with this if their company is relatively small and you live in an area that has nearly the national average of blacks because it's mathematically impossible to prove your hiring practices are discriminatory with such a small sample size.

On top of that, I kind of like not having everyone look at me like I got my job just to fill a quota instead of on merit. I like that people of my own race won't call me an 'Uncle Tom' for doing well in school or having a career. I also like being able to drive to work without being pulled over and searched by police officers just trying to play the odds. I like the fact that my resume wouldn't be trashed for higher paying careers just because I'm married and of child bearing age. I'm glad that no one will accuse me of getting my position because I dress like a skank or am sleeping with the boss.

Those things are all discriminatory, but they are things I've never had to deal with or even think about, other than when I have seen it happen to others.

Does affirmative action or diversity initiatives fix any of that? No, it doesn't. It just makes the perception worse and highlights differences among Sailors based on skin color.

I'm not saying the world is perfect, but as they say..."the grass is always greener..." The good thing about being a white male is that you'll get no special treatment for your race and gender. The bad thing about being a white male is you'll get no special treatment for your race and gender.

When I last saw the data on the subject, the Navy's officer corps has a lower percentage of minorities in it than in the general population, so if the Navy was trying to hand commissions to under-qualified minorities, it's not doing a very good job of it.
 
Last edited:

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
Even though it would seem you disagree with my poorly worded blanket statement about being a white male, I actually agree with most of what you said.

My statements above only apply to the Navy, as that is all I really know, although I am sure there is at least a small parallel to civilian life.

All I am saying is that the perception exists that under qualified minorities and females are given chances that wouldn't be afforded to non-female non-minorities. I have seen it happen. Good? Bad? I don't know, but I don't like seeing it. It pollutes the waters and doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is why doesn't our all volunteer force appeal to minorities and ladies in the numbers that exist in society?

The fact that a taxpayer funded diversity directorate for each service branch exists is both scary and puzzling.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
The fact that a taxpayer funded diversity directorate for each service branch exists is both scary and puzzling.
It's not limited to the Navy. Go into any medium to large company and you will see 3-4 plaques with pictures of executives and full-page expositions telling you how important diversity is to their companies. Your angst is not with the DoD; it's with the equal opportunity laws that mandate such things. It's a CYA so that if a specific branch/store gets accused of discrimination, they can say it's contrary to corporate policy and fire the store/branch/whatever manager.

All I am saying is that the perception exists that under qualified minorities and females are given chances that wouldn't be afforded to non-female non-minorities. I have seen it happen.
I have seen it happen but only in jobs where people are relatively expendable, so it's an easy way to hire minorities and say 'look, we don't discriminate.' How many minority flag and general officers does the military have compared to the population? Women? I think that if one gets filtered out at something like the O-4 board or DH screening, or even getting accepted for a commissioning program at all, then pointing to minority racial/gender favoritism is just an excuse for past poor performance and is not based on any facts. It's essentially saying "I wish I were black so my 2.8 gpa and bad ASTB scores would have been good enough to be accepted as an SNA," when that individual has no idea what the average GPA or ASTB score of black SNAs accepted for OCS in FY2013 actually was.
It pollutes the waters and doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is why doesn't our all volunteer force appeal to minorities and ladies in the numbers that exist in society?
We fully agree here. Diversity initiatives attempt to treat the symptom, not the cause. And the causes for minorities under-achieiving compared to whites are complicated and not well understood. A portion of that is discrimination, but I think it goes much deeper than that and includes a counter-culture where one gets called racial slurs and physically attacked by people of their own race for doing 'white' things like getting good grades. I saw it happen in school and have seen successful blacks give interviews that recant similar experiences.

Concerning women, it seems to be more of a choice than anything else, at least according to surveys conducted by various major media outlets. Fewer women are willing to make sacrifices on the home front that are necessary to climb to the top of the military or corporate ladder. They don't have a male ego that identifies itself with its career. More women are content to take a 'safe' job that will let them pick up the kids from school at 3pm than one that would require working unplanned, unpaid overtime or weekends to make deadlines. Holds true in the military as well -- the last I saw, the ratio of males-to-females who do a DH tour is 2:1, not because females didn't screen but because they weren't willing to sacrifice family life.

The bottom line, though, is that we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Navy were easily able to find qualified minorities to fill its officer ranks. There is something wrong with our society when being 'average' as a minority is actually exceptional.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
All I am saying is that the perception exists that under qualified minorities and females are given chances that wouldn't be afforded to non-female non-minorities. I have seen it happen. Good? Bad? I don't know, but I don't like seeing it. It pollutes the waters and doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is why doesn't our all volunteer force appeal to minorities and ladies in the numbers that exist in society?

I've also seen non-female non-minorities get chances that made me wonder how the hell they got a pass. Shit happens.
You're saying that that negative perception and stigma exists, and I totally agree. But that just proves Spekkio's point about never having to worry about your successes or second chances getting questioned being a different kind of advantage.

This site has been around for long enough, and there are probably a good number of people here who have served on various boards in recent history. I think there's sufficient anonymity on here for anybody who's seen diversity quotas, written or informal, especially if they're terminal paygrade, to call shenanigans.

I've anecdotally heard of "holding out" to the end of the FY for diversity quotas by enlisted recruiters. Never heard any stories like that for officer accessions, certainly not for promotions. Especially for enlisted E-1 to E-6...you can see the results for your sailors, and I've never seen advancement points awarded or deducted for racial affiliation.

Better question might be why this perception continues to persist.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Better question might be why this perception continues to persist.
Because senior leadership -- political, civilian, and military -- constantly make diversity a big deal.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Concerning women, it seems to be more of a choice than anything else, at least according to surveys conducted by various major media outlets. Fewer women are willing to make sacrifices on the home front that are necessary to climb to the top of the military or corporate ladder. They don't have a male ego that identifies itself with its career. More women are content to take a 'safe' job that will let them pick up the kids from school at 3pm than one that would require working unplanned, unpaid overtime or weekends to make deadlines. Holds true in the military as well -- the last I saw, the ratio of males-to-females who do a DH tour is 2:1, not because females didn't screen but because they weren't willing to sacrifice family life.

The bottom line, though, is that we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Navy were easily able to find qualified minorities to fill its officer ranks. There is something wrong with our society when being 'average' as a minority is actually exceptional.
I think you might mean the same thing, but anecdotally I know from my wife and friends that women don't "choose safe jobs", instead that tends to be causal factor of having kids. My wife would love to still have a career, but she also has no desire to put our kids in the 10+hr/day daycare that having said career would require. She is by no means "content" with the decision, but it's part of the decision making process that comes with having kids.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
It's not limited to the Navy. Go into any medium to large company and you will see 3-4 plaques with pictures of executives and full-page expositions telling you how important diversity is to their companies.

In the corporate world diversity also includes having goals for hiring LGBT type individuals,
 

bert

Enjoying the real world
pilot
Contributor
In the corporate world diversity also includes having goals for hiring LGBT type individuals,

I don't know where you work, but speaking for two different aerospace companies in CA that isn't true.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I remember hearing recently that they wanted to add sexual orientation to federal EOP laws. If that passes (or has already passed), it's coming soon to the DoD.

I think you might mean the same thing, but anecdotally I know from my wife and friends that women don't "choose safe jobs", instead that tends to be causal factor of having kids. My wife would love to still have a career, but she also has no desire to put our kids in the 10+hr/day daycare that having said career would require. She is by no means "content" with the decision, but it's part of the decision making process that comes with having kids.
I think we're talking semantics. When faced with the choice between staying on the highway to corporate exec or taking the risk of starting one's own business, or getting off the stay-home-with-my-children off-ramp, women take the off-ramp far more often than men. It doesn't mean that no women place a higher priority on career than raising a family, just that fewer do than men. Having a husband in the military means that the career has to suffer that much more.
 
Top