Don't Ask Don't Tell going away

[m26]

You can change the 'law' ... but what about the other half?? What about 'morality'??? If you keep dumbing down everything enough, pretty soon you have no standards. You have no morality -- it's 'whatever goes' ... it's chaos.

The 'pro' arguments are bullshit and rationalizations and most of you are NOT bullshit kinda' guys ... rationalizers, mebbe (takes one to know one) ... but not bullshitters. But here's the rub (no pun): I think all too many of you are willing to believe almost anything to go along, get along in today's society ... to 'be hip', to be 'enlightened', to be broad minded, to be 'compassionate' .... wa-a-a-a-a-a-ay too many of you, all the way up & down the chain of command.

Are you saying that our politicians are too eager to please their bleating constituents, that "celebrities" are too quick to proclaim their moral superiority without taking stock of the real-world situation, and that people in general are too liable to fall into the popular opinion without any analysis of the issue?

That I can get on board with.

If you are saying that anyone who views homosexuality, gay marriage, ask and tell, et cetera as acceptable practices is somehow delusional, irrational, disingenuous, or too-PC then you are flat out wrong. It's not some cabal out to force the mainstream into accepting some grotesquely immoral act, it is a group of (well, a bunch of idiots, really, but also some) people whose analysis of ethics, moral history, psychology, and theology has led them to believe that the ostracism of homosexuality from public life is unnecessary.

 

[Mumbles]

I believe there is great wisdom in this post. I think many do not understand what you are saying. It seems to be we are at a point where we take a poll to decide which laws to obey and which to ignore, which UCMJ article are still "relevant" and which should be ignored. Complete chaos may be a bit down the road, but it does seem we are headed that way.

In a previous post someone suggested, inter alia, that the way to "get er" done is to rescind the DADT Executive Order and simply tell the "Chiefs" to ignore (all homosexual activity - some homosexual activity - ill defined homosexual activty --selected one) and it will get done. Well, while my direct knowledge of is very dated, from what I hear from friends, former shipmates and some limited direct exposure - The Chief's Mess is just that, a mess. It is broken. Captain Eyers essay in the January 1010 issue of the Proceedings of the U.S. Naval Institute also discusses this issue of a meltdown of the CPO mess. There is also on this site a thread discussing a total collapse (possible prostitution ring being ran by the CPO mess) the CPO Mess on board a US Naval Vessel. If that does not get someone's attention, the road may indeed by shorter than I thought. Should we have turned a blind eye to that sorrid scheme and dismissed it as their choice that they made that had no victims and be left alone. Appartently that is precisely the course of action that the CoC aboard followed.

Sure I would like to not have to talk about this given the weighty things we need to talk about. But do we ignore it? I think I had rather be shouted down than to go away quietly

Master Chief....I'm in complete concurrence. I believe that this discourse was injected back into our lives because of one thing....the SOTUS last week. This is a terrible fucking time for the Chiefs to be deliberating this. (and I suspect that they ALL know this....and can't say as much) I watch this debacle and I question how serious we really are about killing terrorists and protecting Americans. I'm hearing about Ray Mabus' Great Green Fleet and the repeal of DADT more than killing bad guys lately.

 

[Spekkio]

Are you saying that our politicians are too eager to please their bleating constituents,

That's like, kinda their jobs.

 

[squorch2]

Yeah, if it's hard, why do it? I know I always take the easy way out, regardless of the right thing to do.

You know how 40 years after the military was desegregated all of the arguments for it seemed specious and foolish? I'm betting it's going to be like that this time.

 

[m26]

That's like, kinda their jobs.

Unless you think they have a higher obligation to do what's right. Some people do. I do.

 

[mmx1]

Master Chief....I'm in complete concurrence. I believe that this discourse was injected back into our lives because of one thing....the SOTUS last week. This is a terrible fucking time for the Chiefs to be deliberating this. (and I suspect that they ALL know this....and can't say as much) I watch this debacle and I question how serious we really are about killing terrorists and protecting Americans. I'm hearing about Ray Mabus' Great Green Fleet and the repeal of DADT more than killing bad guys lately.

If this is a terrible time to be deliberaing this, then why has Mullen been pondering this in depth long before the SOTU?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/us/politics/04mullen.html?scp=3&sq=Mullen&st=cse

The writing's been on the wall for quite some time.

 

[Spekkio]

What's "right" is representing my interests and the interest of their constituents. That's what people elect them to do. When they no longer do that, even if it's because they think it's "wrong," it's time to vote for someone else.

 

[Mumbles]

MMX...come on Bro...

is THIS really an issue that requires the assiduous attention of the JCS right now? The Admiral can ponder away to his little heart's content. I pray to God that this is not his paramount concern.

 

[squorch2]

I guess we just can't count on our senior officers to handle more than one issue at a time.

 

[The Chief]

Shaking my head at this thread.

For heavens sakes, do not hurt yourself.

I shook my head over the fact that folks want to ignore the law, as this appears to be the case. Should someone openly flaunt the fact that they are homosexual, prima facie, a violation of UCMJ Article 125. Change the law. Do not ask me to enforce good order and discipline but direct me to turn my head and ignore violations of the principle of good order and discipline in selected instances.

I know a little bit about ignoring laws/regulations. I lived through Viet Nam. 1965 - 1972 I spent a total of 4 years there and saw what absense of good order and discipline can do to a fighting force.

The use of dope was rampant, throughout the theater, including aboard ships. Most often this use was ignored. Solders and Marines refused to go on patrols, they slept on guard duty. The list goes on and on. For what ever reason, good order and discipline was for the most part non-existant in so many units.

"Fraggings" were almost common place, although denied by the hierach. I personally know of three "fraggings", both NCO's and Officers were killed by grenade in the hooch. Perps never "discovered" in those three cases. I believe there were hundreds of fraggings during the last years of the war.

I am not saying that would be thel result should DADT be rescinded and the CoC ordered to ignore homosexuality. However, I do believe it to be a slippery slope.

 

[mmx1]

Don't hurt yourself contorting this into a sodomy issue when it's homosexuality you have a problem with. Slippery slope - you're right, if only we'd prosecute all those damned hetero sodomites, the gays wouldn't even be on our radar. I guess you found the solution.

 

[Brett327]

All you "laws are laws" and "morals are morals" crowd need to remember that there are lots of things that used to be against the law and immoral that are perfectly accepted today. I know the analogy has been brought up, but slavery was once legal and moral(one of countless examples), so this absolutist position doesn't really hold water. Society changes and evolves over time, so just because YOU don't happen to agree with the mainstream doesn't mean the mainstream thinking is a result of some kind of conspiratorial design by gays (or the blacks) to "force" the rest of us to be like them. I know you bible-thumpers will disagree with me, but morals and values shift and evolve to fit the cultural norms of a group - not the other way around. Anyone who has an iota of knowledges in sociology can confirm that. Nobody is forcing you to like homosexuality, but in a free country, you're a hypocrite if you get all riled up about who consenting adults choose to love and/or have sex with. All people are asking is to not be prosecuted or fired for living their lives as they see fit, and not having to hide a part of themselves that the rest of society gets to have out in the open.

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

Roger that to all of those who support the 'new way'.

It would seem some of our 'officers' today have less common sense and decency than your garden variety 18 year old airman/seaman -- and more is the pity. I fear this generation of Naval Officer and the 'example' they set just might be the one that puts us in the toilet (O.K. ... the head). Unless, of course, there are some dramatic reversals of the PC-ness and 'anything goes' mode of operation that we see all too often today -- coupled with what passes for 'leadership' .[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
No one has a beef w/ what people do in private. Right is right, and wrong is wrong and everyone bears personal responsibility for their choices in life -- but if that's too tough for some to grasp (as is apparent from some of the posts on this thread) ... then revisit this angle: public vs private: some of you don't get the distinction.

I usually 'joke' when I say "I weep for the future of Naval Aviation" ... but it's becoming less of a joke and more of a reality. I think I'm done here ...

 

[RadicalDude]

So to sum up this thread, old people hate the gays, religious people are uncomfortable about the gays, most folks don't really care about the gays, and life goes on.

 

[scoolbubba]

Roger that to all of those who support the 'new way'.

It would seem some of our 'officers' today have less common sense and decency than your garden variety 18 year old airman/seaman -- and more is the pity. I fear this generation of Naval Officer and the 'example' they set just might be the one that puts us in the toilet (O.K. ... the head). Unless, of course, there are some dramatic reversals of the PC-ness and 'anything goes' mode of operation that we see all too often today -- coupled with what passes for 'leadership' .[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
No one has a beef w/ what people do in private. Right is right, and wrong is wrong and everyone bears personal responsibility for their choices in life -- but if that's too tough for some to grasp (as is apparent from some of the posts on this thread) ... then revisit this angle: public vs private: some of you don't get the distinction.

I usually 'joke' when I say "I weep for the future of Naval Aviation" ... but it's becoming less of a joke and more of a reality. I think I'm done here ...

You forget that those Junior officers you declare are destroying Naval Aviation happen to be the ones fighting wars on two fronts. With all due respect, you're wrong on this one, regardless of how you feel about DADT.