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Don't Ask Don't Tell going away

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It would seem some of our 'officers' today have less common sense and decency than your garden variety 18 year old airman/seaman -- and more is the pity. I fear this generation of Naval Officer and the 'example' they set just might be the one that puts us in the toilet (O.K. ... the head)......we see all too often today -- coupled with what passes for 'leadership' .

Questioning the decency, common sense and leadership of serving officers hanging their asses out in the line.......is that supposed to be ironic or sad? Or maybe both?

I usually 'joke' when I say "I weep for the future of Naval Aviation" ... but it's becoming less of a joke and more of a reality. I think I'm done here ...

There is no crying in Naval Aviation, didn't you the memo/GMT/all hands message on that?
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
A4s, so, basically the gist of what you're saying is that homosexuality is wrong and perverted, and anyone who believes otherwise lacks common sense and is PC, a poor leader, a poor example, etc.

One thing I have learned is that good and bad leaders come in all packages. I've seen guys that could've starred in a John Wayne WWII movie who couldn't lead a pack of dogs to the butcher shop. I've seen guys who look like bookkeepers who could lead cats to the dog pound. The fact that a leader has to toe your party line says more about you than about the people you're passing judgement on. Just because they don't share your personal view on a particular issue, they can't be good leaders? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

The only moral values we all need to share in the military are "honor, courage, and commitment." The rest is all window dressing.

The sodomy rules are broken by straights all the time. That can't be your rationale. A biblical reference to Leviticus would at least frame it in a religious context and I would understand. In the end, though, it appears that basically you just don't like gays. Fine. There are lots of things I don't like, but unless they're dishonorable, illegal, or unethical, I live with them.

Those 18-year-old airmen and seamen will surprise you. The younger one goes, the less they oppose homosexuality. It's the way society is going. George Will said it best: "To my kids' generation, whether a person is gay is about as controversial as whether he is left handed." Now, when a leader is the lone hold-out against the acceptance of homosexuals, does that make him a poor leader? After all, he's out of line with his troops, right?

The future is just fine. The armed forces of the US are going to take it to our enemies, just as they always have. Every generation has its challenges, and every older generation always thinks the new one is screwing things up.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
You forget that those Junior officers you declare are destroying Naval Aviation happen to be the ones fighting wars on two fronts. With all due respect, you're wrong on this one, regardless of how you feel about DADT.

School: you know I love 'ya .... but:

Some ... SOME ... SOME Officers, for Christ's sake !!! SOME people are always on the edge. DADT is just one of many things to consider. Soooooooooo ... it's not all .... it's SOME !!! Now where did all that reading comprehension go to that my tax dollars have paid for ... :)
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
School: you know I love 'ya .... but:

Some ... SOME ... SOME Officers, for Christ's sake !!! SOME people are always on the edge. DADT is just one of many things to consider. Soooooooooo ... it's not all .... it's SOME !!! Now where did all that reading comprehension go to that my tax dollars have paid for ... :)

Ahh, then on this one we'll just have to agree to disagree. Ain't that what makes a wardroom great? No Mai Tais down here though...gotta go enjoy one of these I guess....

El%20Salvador%20Pilsener%2012oz.jpg
 

Ducky

Formerly SNA2007
pilot
Contributor
All you "laws are laws" and "morals are morals" crowd need to remember that there are lots of things that used to be against the law and immoral that are perfectly accepted today. I know the analogy has been brought up, but slavery was once legal and moral(one of countless examples), so this absolutist position doesn't really hold water. Society changes and evolves over time, so just because YOU don't happen to agree with the mainstream doesn't mean the mainstream thinking is a result of some kind of conspiratorial design by gays (or the blacks) to "force" the rest of us to be like them. I know you bible-thumpers will disagree with me, but morals and values shift and evolve to fit the cultural norms of a group - not the other way around. Anyone who has an iota of knowledges in sociology can confirm that. Nobody is forcing you to like homosexuality, but in a free country, you're a hypocrite if you get all riled up about who consenting adults choose to love and/or have sex with. All people are asking is to not be prosecuted or fired for living their lives as they see fit, and not having to hide a part of themselves that the rest of society gets to have out in the open.

Brett

A society without morals and values is a society without direction. Granted times change, but at what point do we draw a line and say as a Nation this is what we believe in and these are our values. At one point we were not only a world super power, but we were also the moral leaders of the world. Although we are still the Military and economic superpower, the image of being the moral and political leader of the world is continually fading as time goes on. Im not saying we should have the same morals and values as other countries because we should not, but earning the respect of other nations and the people of the world because of our values and principles is not a bad asset to have. Im not trying to argue that gays in the military will put our morals in the gutter, but I am curious as to where the line is drawn. What is the next thing to come. Will we be having people wanting it to be legal to marry and have sex with their dogs and cats? Will it be acceptable? It seems outrageous now, but so did being gay 20yrs ago.

As for my opinions about DADT I am indifferent. If a gay person is serving and is an excellent asset to us I see no reason to terminate them on the basis of sexual orientation. However, I do not wan't them to feel the need to come out of the closet and tell me they are gay. I don't go around saying im straight and I would prefer if they don't come tell me they are gay just because. Perhaps the best course of action would be to leave the Not asking or telling in place, but remove the clauses about termination/separation if it is found out that you are gay. Additionally, if DADT goes away are we going to have good people getting fired because they called their "straight" buddy a homo or fag in jest in the Ready Room or at a roast of some sort. I am not so much afraid of serving with homosexuals, but I am fearful of a new wave of PCness that will accompany it.
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
...I am curious as to where the line is drawn. What is the next thing to come. Will we be having people wanting it to be legal to marry and have sex with their dogs and cats? Will it be acceptable? It seems outrageous now, but so did being gay 20yrs ago.
Of course, because what two consenting adults choose to do is the same as having sex with an animal.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
A straight person claiming they "don't go around saying they're straight" is ridiculous. You don't think you do, but you do. When someone asks what you're doing Friday you don't have to lie. When a social event comes, you don't have to go with someone you don't care for in order to hide who you do.

Kind of how white people don't understand how blacks can feel uncomfortable in certain situations. You don't notice it because you're in the majority.

In any case, I thought this was hilarious:

 

Ducky

Formerly SNA2007
pilot
Contributor
Of course, because what two consenting adults choose to do is the same as having sex with an animal.

Its not the same. I was just saying that with regard to whats morally acceptable, people 20 yrs ago would have called you crazy if you said being gay will become morally acceptable in our society just like you are calling my comparison ridiculous now. I'm just saying its all a slippery slope and unless we stand firm on some morals and principles there is no telling what will be socially acceptable 20-30yrs from now.
 

Ducky

Formerly SNA2007
pilot
Contributor
A straight person claiming they "don't go around saying they're straight" is ridiculous. You don't think you do, but you do. When someone asks what you're doing Friday you don't have to lie. When a social event comes, you don't have to go with someone you don't care for in order to hide who you do.

Kind of how white people don't understand how blacks can feel uncomfortable in certain situations. You don't notice it because you're in the majority.

In any case, I thought this was hilarious:

[IMG]http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww41/phrogdriver/airwarriorsgay.jpg[/IMG]

Very true. If you are in general conversation its one thing, but feeling the need to share TMI just because you can is what im gettig at. If we are all talking about weekend plans chasing tail etc. and a gay coworker wants to say he's getting laid this weekend fine, but to me thats not the same as vocally coming out of the closet. I guess its just a comfort zone thing. Perhaps its weird, but if the legal integration does happen we will each have our own growing pains.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Its not the same. I was just saying that with regard to whats morally acceptable, people 20 yrs ago would have called you crazy if you said being gay will become morally acceptable in our society just like you are calling my comparison ridiculous now. I'm just saying its all a slippery slope and unless we stand firm on some morals and principles there is no telling what will be socially acceptable 20-30yrs from now.

The slippery slope argument is generally a fallacy. It's like playing "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" with logic.

I'm waiting for Terminix to run ads saying,"Ants and elephants are both animals. If you don't get that insect problem taken care of, herds of elephants will be trampling your children in the living room."
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Its not the same. I was just saying that with regard to whats morally acceptable, people 20 yrs ago would have called you crazy if you said being gay will become morally acceptable in our society just like you are calling my comparison ridiculous now. I'm just saying its all a slippery slope and unless we stand firm on some morals and principles there is no telling what will be socially acceptable 20-30yrs from now.

And 40 years ago, a black guy marrying a white girl or vice versa was not socially acceptable (and I think may still have been illegal) in places in America. Where are you going with this?
 

zpatman

Member
With the repeal of DADT i don't think your going to see closeted people all the sudden unfurling rainbow flags and blaring Its Raining Men from their Ipods. I'm quite sure that alot of folks don't want to risk upsetting their place in the social/workplace pecking order by shouting out their gayness or what have you. It'd be like all the sudden announcing that its cool to boink fat chics...just because someone says its now cool...doesn't mean all who partook want the whole world to know about it. just my .02
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
With the repeal of DADT i don't think your going to see closeted people all the sudden unfurling rainbow flags and blaring Its Raining Men from their Ipods. I'm quite sure that alot of folks don't want to risk upsetting their place in the social/workplace pecking order by shouting out their gayness or what have you. It'd be like all the sudden announcing that its cool to boink fat chics...just because someone says its now cool...doesn't mean all who partook want the whole world to know about it. just my .02

You mean it's not?!! Will this mean that I will have to skip out on 'Pigs in Space' the next time I go to Fallon? :(
 

OscarMyers

Well-Known Member
None
You mean it's not?!! Will this mean that I will have to skip out on 'Pigs in Space' the next time I go to Fallon? :(
Miss out on pigs in space yes, but with DADT done away with you can be seen in public with that cross-dresser that hangs out at sandwinds and it will be okay.
 

zpatman

Member
Fat chics are like mopeds....their fun to ride, you just don't want your friends seeing you do it. Crossdressers....your on your own putting lipstick on that pig :icon_tong
 
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