Enlisted get a shot at a seat in the cockpit

[Road Program]

With only 30 studs getting the call thes guys will mosyt likely have some pretty imressive stats as far as test scores and education.

No joke. You won't be seeing any Seaman Schmuckatelly types in the cockpit. How many make it to the fleet will be another issue, however. Think about it...how many people from your original API class attrited for whatever reason? From my class of 32 or so, I think 5 have left aviation by their or someone else's choosing, and that's before going to -86 or -120.

I'm not saying all these guys will fail out of training, but numbers is numbers and statistics say the Navy won't get 30 aviators out of this first batch.

 

[A4sForever]

......I'm not saying all these guys will fail out of training, but numbers is numbers and statistics say the Navy won't get 30 aviators out of this first batch.

And they won't all make it ..... they'll get maybe 20-25 bodies standing tall to get their Wings on Graduation Day --- unless it's a "Santa Claus" grading system. I think it is the "camel's nose under the tent" .... to try the concept on (again) before going full steam ahead. 30 guys is nothing in the big scheme .....

But the powers that be don't want to "hang it all out" with their reputations (and accountability) for a "radical" program ---- like we haven't had it before. It worked in the past --- but we are dealing with a whole bunch of new bureaucrats here.

Wonder what Naval Aviation would look like today if "they" had never shit-canned the NAP program ??? Hmmmmm .... ???

 

[bobbybrock]

Do you guys in the fleet think these guys woil get a fair go at this? Like has been said before, traditons are hard to break.
I can remember W-4's in my first unit back in the early ninties telling me how much it blew in the late 60's and early 70's. I guess at that time most of the IP's were regular officers. Guess they put the W.O.C.'s. through the ringer.

 

[Gatordev]

From the helo side of things, I think they could get a fair shake. I always thought Navy Warrants and (prior) LDOs could be a bit "strange," for lack of a better world. Not individually, but as a whole. Since these guys will have been junior enlisted, and then sent through a common, trying experience (flight school), they would probably fit in a little better then some Warrants/LDOs I've seen. Then again, they're coming from working 12 on, 12 off busting their balls to working w/ a group of, let's face it, lazy people who want to be paid large amounts of money for getting 8 hours sleep and not having to work more than 12 hours a day.

Regardless, w/ flight hours as limited as they are now in the fleet, if I wasn't able to get FCF flights or go out and do a syllabus NVG hop as an instructor because the warrants shoe-horned their way in there, I'd be kind of pissed, not to mention completely throw off readiness. This is all given that there are more than just 30 who go through it, of course.

Also, if they're sole job is to fly and not worry about ground jobs (which is a pipedream in the LAMPS community) then that means they aren't writing the flight schedule, which means your regular JO buds can still give you the hookup flights.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[KWpilot]

Just FYI but as a Warrant I also have collateral duties that do distract me from flying flying. Granted most Warrants in the Army are not DO's or department heads but in aviation we run supply commo the arm's room NBC Saftey I would much rather work in saftey Natops or OPS than be a supply clerk. The biggest thing that comes from being a Warrant is that we stay in the cockpit longer than the RLO's usually an O-1 out of flight school comes to the unit and is put in a Platoon Leader's position and after 12 monhts another is coming in to take their place so the chance of a RLO becoming a HAC is slim. As A warrant we are the only constant varible.

 

[webmaster]

I know for a fact that my YG is overmanned for VP and something like 2/3 of us will not make DH (ie, not at the RAG, naga naga nagannaflyanymore, at least not with VP). Plenty of quall'ed folks. Once again, honor is in the dollar.

I'm going to go back to editing my resume and eating my sour grapes.

So true, so true.... swing shift Taco Bell, here I come...

Can only speak about VP perspective, but here are my thoughts:

I know I would give them a fair shake in the VP wardroom (not like I will ever run across these 30 more than likely, nor will I probably be back for a VP DH tour... reference Zab's post above). But I kinda wonder down the line, how a 3rd VP tour (PLUS let's say 1 or 2 IP tours at the FRS) WO would act in the squadron?

- Will they become our WTI (Weapons Tactics Instructors) and take away that JO shot?
- Top tier JO billets (NATOPs, IP, Pilot Training, etc...) who is going to fill those? With the most impact to the wardroom and chances for leadership.
- With a couple WO IPs, and 2 DH, and either the XO/CO as a pilot, suddenly, hmm, we really DON'T need a first tour JO to qualify as an IP....??
- WO will have the time, the quals, and will trump for signing the plane any first tour JO, UNLESS they qualified as IP....
- WO's eligible for community hard fills? If they are going to take slots at shore flying billets (FRS, etc), that would take away from where JOs "could" go to, while lowering the number of ppl eligible for hard fills... hmmm?
- All JOs won't make PPC/TACCO? Kill 'em young and early if not up to snuff? To an extent, this is ALREADY happening in VP w/out the WOs..... downsizing wardrooms, 18 month cycles, insufficient flight hours..... (side note, had some discussion with post IP from the FRS, and apparently, there is some DEEP selection going on for VP IPs on first tour.... do well, and do well EARLY if any 4Ps are out there reading...)

I guess all the comments from the Army WOs about the impacts on squadrons, seems as if there was a certain % reached, it would push URL pilots out of the cockpit (crew holding leadership positions). Same thing as how they currently handle the number of O4 IPs that go to any given squadron (spread the wealth/qualifications/experience around to offset clobbering a squadron, etc ... whatver you want to call it).

Bottom line, unfortunately, I think it would effect the makeup of the VP squadron wardroom (hopefully in a good way), but depends on the attitudes of those involved, and how A time was being assigned. I personally think one of THE current strengths is that by the end of the tour you have extremely tactical and proficient pilots and taccos that "step up" into these leadership roles, that prepare them for future DH/Command, etc... Seems to me that WOs would diminish the ability to fill that vacuum/role.

Finally, if its all about manning, #s, and increasing tactical proficiencies.... do away with the damn disassociated sea tours. Have JOs go back and do a second JO sea tour (those that decided to stay in)... but, apparently that is a big can of worms in and of itself???

Seems to me that branching off to stay in the cockpit might be a better way to do it. All that $$ has already been invested, instead of sending "Fail to Screen" LT Schmuck to be OIC TSC Antarctica, or fill an IA billet in Afghanistan/Bahrain/Iraq, why don't you send them back to the community and recoup investment, while maintaining loyalty from those that did their first tours and weren't screened? Granted, you can't send everyone back, but of those that you did, I am sure you can find some star performers....

 

[bobbybrock]

Sorry about that. Not sure how that got posted. Anyway in the army there are two types of warrants. Aviators and non aviators or walking warrants as we like to call them. I see myself having very little in common with my non- flying brotheren. In my flight school class 12 years we had a very few guys over 24 or 25. Probably not the age most people would think of when they think of a warrant officer. If this takes off i'm sure the same type of culture will develope in the Navy.

 

[gunfighter77]

Good luck squids, the simulator instructors are going to love you. I'm sure the Naval Aviators here can vouch that the training is no joke. Bring some denture cream for your sim instructor and you'll make it just fine.

 

[A6-EA6]

Finally, if its all about manning, #s, and increasing tactical proficiencies.... do away with the damn disassociated sea tours. Have JOs go back and do a second JO sea tour (those that decided to stay in)... but, apparently that is a big can of worms in and of itself???

Seems to me that branching off to stay in the cockpit might be a better way to do it. All that $$ has already been invested, instead of sending "Fail to Screen" LT Schmuck to be OIC TSC Antarctica, or fill an IA billet in Afghanistan/Bahrain/Iraq, why don't you send them back to the community and recoup investment, while maintaining loyalty from those that did their first tours and weren't screened? Granted, you can't send everyone back, but of those that you did, I am sure you can find some star performers....

This is more of an exercise in bringing down the numbers of competitive JOs so they will have a better chance at DH and CO. It is not about tactical proficiency. I don't think you will see any of these CWOs filling any "prime" community jobs, those will go to the LTs. They will use the CWOs as filler and there will be a glass ceiling for them. Remember, it is way cheaper to keep a CWO down and keep him flying than to hold a LT down and keep him flying (take a look at the pay tables). And with less JOs in the squadron in the first place, there may be room to send some of the LTs back to a VP squadron for a Super-JO tour, but I doubt it since that would increase the JO numbers again, which is exactly what this program is trying to reduce.

If you add 5 CWOs to a typical P-3 squadron, that's 5 less JOs to compete against for the EP FITREP and the "career enhancing" follow on tour. I don't think you will see too many CWOs at the RAG (probably none). These CWOs WILL be treated as 2nd class citizens when it comes to jobs, both in the squadron and out of the squadron. That will be the price they pay to fly instead of staying in the enlisted ranks.

 

[HH-60H]

I believe the actual message says that the intent is for the CWO's not to take "career enhancing" jobs in the squadron.

 

[bobbybrock]

Hopefully the intent of this program holds true. Like I stated earlier regular Army Officers have been realgated to being the second class citizens when it comes to flying. I imagine ths was not the intent when our Warrant program started way back when.
I think it would be hard to keep a warrant IP out of the RAG or Fleet when he has way more experince then most of the 0-3's. At the home of Army aviation you'll find very few regualr officers IP's. It used to ot be that way.

 

[KWpilot]

These CWOs WILL be treated as 2nd class citizens when it comes to jobs, both in the squadron and out of the squadron. That will be the price they pay to fly instead of staying in the enlisted ranks.

Thats the same attitude that Army RLO's have. For some strange reason they have a chip on their shoulder thinking that they are better than the Warrants in all aspects of the military. Most Warrants have a higher degree being a Masters and Ive met a few with a PHD. And for the remark of staying in the enlisted ranks FYI. I was prior enlisted and today I like to think that I am a pretty good aviator who has a proved track record flying combat missions in Afghanistan. You know as well as I do that anyone one can fly and do it well when you recieve good instructions. The Navy needs to embrace this new group of Aviators treat them well because they might end up being the backbone of Naval Aviation.

 

[S.O.B.]

On a positive note this will free up Pilots for all those IA jobs

 

[Brett327]

The Navy needs to embrace this new group of Aviators treat them well because they might end up being the backbone of Naval Aviation.

Being treated well and equally are different matters. They are there in very specific communities for a specific purpose and will likely never see widespread use in Naval Aviation in general (I.E. TACAIR). It will never be like the Army system.

Brett

 

[bobbybrock]

Army aviation went through many changes in the day. Many said that a Warrant will never serve as a HAC or IP. Today it is common place and very hard to find a regualr officer who serve in these capacities.
Most of the Warrants in my unit have a degree. Some have been selected to go to Pax River ( NTPS).
Just remeber that not to long ago the Navy said the battle ship would be the main stay of the fleet. When was the last time you saw an active battle ship?