Enlisted get a shot at a seat in the cockpit

[Brett327]

Army aviation went through many changes in the day. Many said that a Warrant will never serve as a HAC or IP. Today it is common place and very hard to find a regualr officer who serve in these capacities.
Most of the Warrants in my unit have a degree. Some have been selected to go to Pax River ( NTPS).
Just remeber that not to long ago the Navy said the battle ship would be the main stay of the fleet. When was the last time you saw an active battle ship?

Well, we can play the "what if" game all day long, but at this point, anything more than the stated intentions of the program are merely conjecture. While the Army experience and history with flying WOs provides an interesting perspective, I don't think it serves as a very good means of comparison for the two programs. The 13XX URL community will not change appreciably, there will just be fewer of them in a given VP/HSX squadron to compete (which is exactly the desired effect).

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

Well, we can play the "what if" game all day long, but at this point, anything more than the stated intentions of the program are merely conjecture. Brett

Agree ... but speculation: perhaps the Navy should consider these prospective gents for ONE unit ... i.e. one squadron, staffed and led on the old model of VF-2 ... the so-called "Flying Chiefs"?? For a "test" or a trial run. That would go a long way toward solving real or perceived "problems" with the make-up of the Ready Room.

It will probably never happen in today's Navy. But before you laugh ... remember, it worked.

From VF-2.org website:

At the beginning of WWII VF-2 "Flying Chiefs" was comprised of non-commissioned officers, chiefs, hence their name. They flew F2A-2 and F2A-3 Brewster Buffaloes and operated off of the USS Lexington (CV-2) along with the other squadrons of Air Group Two.

 

[bobbybrock]

Gents,
Don't get me wrong on this one. I for one think the system in the Army is flawed in way to many ways.
I would hope that the Navy doesn't even come close to modeling anything after Army aviation. I just find this concept being adopted by the Navy intresting. I think it will fall by the waste side after a few years. A few studs will get their wings and maybe intergrated into the URL system later on. In all likely hood they will fulfill the requirements.
I guess time will tell. It will be an interesting few years.

 

[Flash]

Gents,
Don't get me wrong on this one. I for one think the system in the Army is flawed in way to many ways.
I would hope that the Navy doesn't even come close to modeling anything after Army aviation. I just find this concept being adopted by the Navy intresting. I think it will fall by the waste side after a few years. A few studs will get their wings and maybe intergrated into the URL system later on. In all likely hood they will fulfill the requirements.
I guess time will tell. It will be an interesting few years.

That is exactly what I see happening to the flying WO's, becoming URL's. That is what happened to NAVCAD's and the flying LDO program.

One other question that someone else brought up, what kind of officer training are these guys going to go through? The current NAvy WO school is a knife and fork school for salty Chiefs (and a few PO1's). I would hope they would put some young E-5 trhough a tougher and more rigorous program, definitely a little more PT .

 

[Brett327]

That is exactly what I see happening to the flying WO's, becoming URL's. That is what happened to NAVCAD's and the flying LDO program.

One other question that someone else brought up, what kind of officer training are these guys going to go through? The current NAvy WO school is a knife and fork school for salty Chiefs (and a few PO1's). I would hope they would put some young E-5 trhough a tougher and more rigorous program, definitely a little more PT .

Don't bet on it. It has all the appearance of going through the regular CWO/LDO process.

Brett

 

[bobbybrock]

You would think that the Navy would want to see how these guys react to stress. That is the real purpose of WOCS in the Army. Originally it was for aviators only. Basically a test of well you manage stress.
Flying an airplane is one thing. Flying in combat or landing on a pitching deck is another.

 

[Flash]

Don't bet on it. It has all the appearance of going through the regular CWO/LDO process.

Brett

Why not send them through OCS? I really don't see how they will get much benefit out of the current WO/LDO program. I don't think it would be fair to them or the Navy.

 

[Brett327]

Why not send them through OCS? I really don't see how they will get much benefit out of the current WO/LDO program. I don't think it would be fair to them or the Navy.

Well, how would you differentiate the current training method for CWO/LDOs with the new guys? OCS didn't prepare me to be an aviator - flight school did.

Brett

 

[sarnav]

What stress does NROTC produce compared to OCS? If you are saying you need to do push-ups while getting yelled at by a gunny to be an Aviator I dont buy it. I am pretty sure they will weed out the turds and get thirty guys/gals who would have had a great shot at another program like STA-21 but choose to go Warrant. Like many have pointed out this will be highly competitive and those that get picked up will be thoroughly screened.

 

[Stearmann4]

It would be prudent to talk to one of the CWO/LDO NFOs selected 5 years or so ago from the now defunct program where they took senior AWs and sent em' to Pensacola for their wings.

I'm good friends with a couple, and while they may be the minority, they got their one good sea)flying) tour and are now sentenced to an eternity of non-flying jobs far from the aviation community. Kudos to BUPERs for spelling that out in the message release. At least applicants have been forewarned.

In all honesty, the Army Warrant system (sort-of) works simply because it's had 50 years to smooth out the process. Some aspects are still ludicrous, but it's common law now.

I sincerely see Navy Warrant Pilots getting a good sea-tour and forever after being detailed to non-flying billets that are the scourge of URL progression.

I also see some interesting cockpit dynamics. It would be a different if the incoming CWOs were high-time pilots bringing with them some credibility. However, they'll be nuggets, as well as being junior in the Navy and aviation.

 

[S.O.B.]

The kind of guy or gal that gets selected for this will compete their bachelors degree shortly after they get through flight school. They will then look around the wardroom and wonder why am I making thousands less than a LT who has the same education and same job. This is a screw job for the folks that would get selected, why not just go STA-21.

 

[ChuckMK23]

The kind of guy or gal that gets selected for this will compete their bachelors degree shortly after they get through flight school. They will then look around the wardroom and wonder why am I making thousands less than a LT who has the same education and same job. This is a screw job for the folks that would get selected, why not just go STA-21.

I think that's the whole point though - it's not a screw job. The whole point is to get people to do the same job for less dollars and educational resources.

You are taking people that may not neccessarily be right for commissioned service - yet are aeronautically adaptable and can be trainined to fly an aircraft and be excellent pilots.

The real dollar value - which is what testing the waters in this project is all about - is in reducing commissioned end strength. Commisioned personnel are very expensive over a career in terms of accession, training, retention and then leaving the service either through retirement or whatever.

Again it's all about the dollars. Are they doing the same job? Kind of - definetly in flying bt not in big picture career path.

Military service is not about pay. You are paid so you can live in the appropriate socio-economic class/status commensurate with your responsibilities. You are not "paid" to do a job.

 

[Brett327]

I think that's the whole point though - it's not a screw job. The whole point is to get people to do the same job for less dollars and educational resources.

You are taking people that may not neccessarily be right for commissioned service - yet are aeronautically adaptable and can be trainined to fly an aircraft and be excellent pilots.

The real dollar value - which is what testing the waters in this project is all about - is in reducing commissioned end strength. Commisioned personnel are very expensive over a career in terms of accession, training, retention and then leaving the service either through retirement or whatever.

Again it's all about the dollars. Are they doing the same job? Kind of - definetly in flying bt not in big picture career path.

Military service is not about pay. You are paid so you can live in the appropriate socio-economic class/status commensurate with your responsibilities. You are not "paid" to do a job.

Someone's been taking their truthiness pills. I'm impressed.

Brett

 

[S.O.B.]

The caliber of individual that will be selected for this program would easily qualify for STA-21 and due to the competitiveness will certainly “be right for commissioned service”. This program is simply a cheaper version of NAVCAD.


As far as Military service not being about pay, that may be true but retention has everything to do with pay.

 

[Flash]

Well, how would you differentiate the current training method for CWO/LDOs with the new guys? OCS didn't prepare me to be an aviator - flight school did.

Brett

But OCS trained you to become an officer. At least it was suppose to, maybe not in your case?......... Officer before Aviator, right?

My point is that the Navy has had a training program for LDO/CWO's for years that has suited everyone fine. I asked a few of the LDO/CWO guys I knew about their traning and they described it as a 9-5 class learning about officer life, a knife and fork school. Having been in the Navy for an average of 12-18years, they have a lot of experience under their belt. An E-5 with 4-7 years in is going to have a lot less experience and would most definitely gain from more thorough training.

If you hadn't noticed, the Navy did away with the WO1 rank because the guys who bcame CWO's were much more experinced than their Marine and Army brethren, who can become WO's at an earlier point in their enlisted careers, and deserved a higher rank. A good question, will we reactivate WO1 as a rank for these guys?

All I am saying is that the current CWO/LDO school is set up for a different set of guys than would be going through the CWO flight program and maybe the new guys could benefit from a more thorough officer training program given their relative lack of experience.