ERGM cancelled

[a_m]

If it was posted on Baseops, but we don't have any nondeploying light blue regulars on AW.

From hearing those guys, you'd think they were omniscient.

 

[BigRed389]

Cost. There's an indeterminable number of weps systems we'd love to have to fit every situation; but in the case of the BB, it just costs too much to run them. Seriously - steam powered turbines are slowly going away (yes, many auxiliaries still use them) with gas turbines starting to be the rule, as they're much faster to respond, maintain, and are more efficient. Couple that with the upkeep. There aren't shipbuilders building BBs anymore. Anything that breaks mechanically has to be fabricated. Unfortunately there's not an Auto Zone for the BB world. ~25 max range for heavy artillery support doesn't really make for much argument. You could probably get on-call CAS with precision ordnance from an alert launch faster than you could maneuver a battleship into position, plus the CAS can go to mile 26, 27, etc. In shallow/shoal areas you couldn't get the BB that close anyway. Just thoughts.

Not to mention the increased risk of putting a very unstealthy and vulnerable platform like a BB in the littorals to provide NGFS.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I say bring back battle ships. They're easy to use, and there's not a whole lot that beats its shock and awe effect. Sure, it's a carrier Navy, but artillery (rather, surface-borne, indirect fire) is the King of Battle.

You obviously haven't seen the stunning accuracy of NGFS up close and personal (as I hid behind my HMMWV because they were almost a click off target).

 

[usmarinemike]

You obviously haven't seen the stunning accuracy of NGFS up close and personal (as I hid behind my HMMWV because they were almost a click off target).

Certainly haven't experienced NGFS. Was it limitations of the weapons systems or poor training that caused that? My impression is that there isn't a whole lot of observed NGFS training done, but then I haven't exactly been a member of a FST on a beach. Enlighten me.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Certainly haven't experienced NGFS. Was it limitations of the weapons systems or poor training that caused that? My impression is that there isn't a whole lot of observed NGFS training done, but then I haven't exactly been a member of a FST on a beach. Enlighten me.

Kind of a little of both. The trajectory is flatter than with artillery, so the rounds have the potential to skip. Throw in the fact that they don't get enough practice doing it, and it doesn't look pretty when they do shoot.

 

[Pugs]

Any of you old timers remember ERDL?

Yep both on cruise and special project at China Lake (where we used it for something else). CVW-8 dropped a fair amount of Walleye in ODS.

 

[BigRed389]

Shouldn't be the weapons system. 5" advertised CEP is way, way, way less than 1000m.

Also, were they firing BL&P(Blue rounds)? The typical rounds used for real world NGFS shouldn't "skip" as they'd be bursting before they hit.

Though I won't argue the lack of practice part.

 

[fc2spyguy]

Shouldn't be the weapons system. 5" advertised CEP is way, way, way less than 1000m.

Also, were they firing BL&P(Blue rounds)? The typical rounds used for real world NGFS shouldn't "skip" as they'd be bursting before they hit.

Though I won't argue the lack of practice part.

The NSFS/NGFS, what ever the acronym is these days, when I was on a ship was rarely practiced. I would say that we hit san clemente once or twice while I was in San Diego, while there we used a combination of BL&P and warhead shots. While in Japan I don't recall doing much, if any, NGFS training. This may, or may not, have changed since I was on a ship in '02. I do know that ERGM was crap, the people building it couldn't make it work, and BTERM was what the money should have been spent on. This is based on my observations in the field, but I was just an FC1 working on the firing teams at White Sands Missile Range.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Shouldn't be the weapons system. 5" advertised CEP is way, way, way less than 1000m.

Also, were they firing BL&P(Blue rounds)? The typical rounds used for real world NGFS shouldn't "skip" as they'd be bursting before they hit.

Though I won't argue the lack of practice part.

My reference to the weapons system was more about the after effect of being grossly off target. They were almost 1 KM off target, and I blame that solely on lack of proficiency. It showed as they were very, very slow to get the fire mission out (even questioning us as to our level of control of CAS assets), then they missed. The weapons systems part came into play because we saw the round skip about 200m, and yes - I think they were using the Blue Rounds. Truth be told - it didn't exactly make me feel as though they'd be the first ones to call when the shit hit the fan.

It's really unfortunate, because it is a capable weapons system. But you have to practice. I would love to see the Navy taking a more purple view of it - and coming down to Lejeune to work with us. It'd be great to see a ship's CO on the hill to observe the coordination/deconfliction that occurs between the FSC, AirO, NGLO, Arty LnO, and the spotters. Then they'd probably feel more comfortable working with us. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I agree with the lack of practice, however I would like to point out that your own service's aviators almost killed you. Looks like we aren't the only ones that could use work.

Mistakes happen. Big difference is that was one bomb out of dozens of sorties I controlled. The 5" was almost every round the one and only time they shot for us.

 

[SemperGumbi]

Kind of a little of both. The trajectory is flatter than with artillery, so the rounds have the potential to skip. Throw in the fact that they don't get enough practice doing it, and it doesn't look pretty when they do shoot.

Is poor topographical planning a player?

 

[eddie]

Is poor topographical planning a player?

Ooooh!!! Combat Geology!!! Sweet! :tongue2_1

 

[phrogpilot73]

Is poor topographical planning a player?

It's definitely a consideration. As BigRed said, the "real" rounds don't skip as bad - but their beaten zone/sheaf is more elongated than Arty, Mortars, etc. So, if you're shooting into rising terrain it will make the beaten zone/sheaf smaller and conversely, if you're shooting into falling terrain the beaten zone/sheaf will be larger.

With that being said, I have no personal experience with that piece of it (as Lejeune, the one and only place I've observed NGFS, is flat as flat can be). I can only push the "I believe" button and tell you what they taught us in class.

 

[squeeze]

Mistakes happen. Big difference is that was one bomb out of dozens of sorties I controlled. The 5" was almost every round the one and only time they shot for us.

One of the destroyers on our MEU's ESG shelled the OP during a workup. Thankfully, due to their aim, no one was hurt. They were sent home shortly thereafter. I believe that was the first and last time those guys utilized NGF.

 

[DanMa1156]

Is NGSF not practiced due to lack of areas to practice, or lack of funds, poor foresight in thinking they'd never need to use it, or what? Maybe Steve or PSW would be best qualified to answer this one...