Europe under extreme duress

[Hotdogs]

I am not suggesting we do nothing to help Ukraine. Hotdogs, if you think France has done so much, then maybe we agree, because I believe we should do as much as they have. They, on the other hand, should be doing far more than we are if they give a shit about European defense and are so afraid of Russia like some on here appear to still be. If we didn't do so much, others would be forced to step up and take care of their own yard. What's happening now is akin to a rich guy (Europe) going to buy a new BMW while begging his rich neighbor (the US) to give him a gun and build a fence around his yard. And we're the suckers who keep doing it! Mirage, I pulled this from the same organization you cited above for support in Ukraine. The U.S. economy is massive and your chart doesn’t accurately represent the economy

The chart below is a more accurate representation of Europe’s actual commitment to Ukraine. Seems a little more even now doesn’t it? Total expenditures in USD do not actually reflect a countries capability to provide support. I do agree Europe should step up its game and there is progress in that arena, but those changes take time and can’t be politically turned on overnight. Publicly disparaging our allies is not likely to entice them to change going forward (Read: Basically anything that comes out of the “America First” isolationist crowd).

 

[Flash]

This seems to be the opposite of deescalatory...

Supposed video of the 'attack', a bit anticlimactic but hopefully effective.

 

[Griz882]

Supposed video of the 'attack', a bit anticlimactic but hopefully effective.

All I can say about that video is that Russian airfield maintenance hasn’t improved much since the Soviet era.

 

[Random8145]

All I can say about that video is that Russian airfield maintenance hasn’t improved much since the Soviet era.

I forget where I read it, but I remember reading somewhere that that was actually purposeful to a good degree, that basically the Soviet mindset was it's a military base, so no point in making it look nice. From their perspective, the Western bases were very "fancy."

 

[Random8145]

The chart below is a more accurate representation of Europe’s actual commitment to Ukraine. Seems a little more even now doesn’t it? Total expenditures in USD do not actually reflect a countries capability to provide support. I do agree Europe should step up its game and there is progress in that arena, but those changes take time and can’t be politically turned on overnight. Publicly disparaging our allies is not likely to entice them to change going forward (Read: Basically anything that comes out of the “America First” isolationist crowd).

View attachment 37718

I don't see France on this list...?

 

[wink]

I forget where I read it, but I remember reading somewhere that that was actually purposeful to a good degree, that basically the Soviet mindset was it's a military base, so no point in making it look nice. From their perspective, the Western bases were very "fancy."

So what was the explanation for almost every other bit of Soviet infrastructure looking that way? Apartment buildings, schools, highways, factories, all are crap. Well, except for the "private" property of the apparatchik.

 

[Mirage]

The chart below is a more accurate representation of Europe’s actual commitment to Ukraine. Seems a little more even now doesn’t it? Total expenditures in USD do not actually reflect a countries capability to provide support. I do agree Europe should step up its game and there is progress in that arena, but those changes take time and can’t be politically turned on overnight. Publicly disparaging our allies is not likely to entice them to change going forward (Read: Basically anything that comes out of the “America First” isolationist crowd).

View attachment 37718

Where is France on there? You said they're doing so much, right? I'm confused what your point is. Perhaps my myopic view and lack of understanding of the region is causing me to miss how the hell you're making any sense posting that after telling me how France is the savior of Ukraine.

At any rate, why should the US be doing more than every country except the Baltics and Poland on a per GDP basis, if that's your preferred measuring stick (though I doubt it's the Ukrainians)? Doesn't this war threaten them? Poland and the Baltics seem like they may be threatened... How about the rest? What am I missing?

 

[Random8145]

So what was the explanation for almost every other bit of Soviet infrastructure looking that way? Apartment buildings, schools, highways, factories, all are crap. Well, except for the "private" property of the apparatchik.

Oh I agree. But that was due to the failures of the system itself, whereas with the Soviet military, bases with things like overgrown grass and so forth was intentional as it just wasn't viewed as something important.

 

[Griz882]

Oh I agree. But that was due to the failures of the system itself, whereas with the Soviet military, bases with things like overgrown grass and so forth was intentional as it just wasn't viewed as something important.

I was less concerned with the grass than the a runway that looks like a poor country road.

 

[Hotdogs]

Where is France on there? You said they're doing so much, right? I'm confused what your point is. Perhaps my myopic view and lack of understanding of the region is causing me to miss how the hell you're making any sense posting that after telling me how France is the savior of Ukraine.

At any rate, why should the US be doing more than every country except the Baltics and Poland on a per GDP basis, if that's your preferred measuring stick (though I doubt it's the Ukrainians)? Doesn't this war threaten them? Poland and the Baltics seem like they may be threatened... How about the rest? What am I missing?

Your melodrama and hyperbole is nauseating. You stated France has done nothing. Clearly that was false. They all (Europe) could do more, and multiple people on this forum have stated that.

If you don’t understand the points I’ve made in my previous post about the rules based order, collective security, classical liberalism, and the foreign policy of the United States since the end of World War II - then we’re wasting our time.

 

[Mirage]

Your melodrama and hyperbole is nauseating. You stated France has done nothing. Clearly that was false. They all (Europe) could do more, and multiple people on this forum have stated that.

If you don’t understand the points I’ve made in my previous post about the rules based order, collective security, classical liberalism, and the foreign policy of the United States since the end of World War II - then we’re wasting our time.

Your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you must be uninformed and uneducated is nauseating. I have a Master's in this particular topic. I understand the issues at play.

If you or anyone interpreted my saying France and others have done jack shit as literally I think they have done nothing, then no, that's not my belief. See the graph I posted. Clearly I know that's not the case. What most have done is the absolute minimum they can get away with while signalling their support for Ukraine. They have not actually attempted to defend Ukraine from Russia.

You didn't answer my earlier question. If the US did as much as France, Spain, etc, as I argue we should, would you be happy with that? Or would you still accuse me of wanting to appease them, not supporting our allies, not supporting globalism, the rules based order, etc.?

 

[Hotdogs]

Your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you must be uninformed and uneducated is nauseating. I have a Master's in this particular topic. I understand the issues at play.

If you or anyone interpreted my saying France and others have done jack shit as literally I think they have done nothing, then no, that's not my belief. See the graph I posted. Clearly I know that's not the case. What most have done is the absolute minimum they can get away with while signalling their support for Ukraine. They have not actually attempted to defend Ukraine from Russia.

You didn't answer my earlier question. If the US did as much as France, Spain, etc, as I argue we should, would you be happy with that? Or would you still accuse me of wanting to appease them, not supporting our allies, not supporting globalism, the rules based order, etc.?

Is how France is responding to the war in Ukraine (doing virtually nothing) appeasement?

If you don’t take your words seriously, then why should I? I stand by comment on your diatribes being myopic and lacking context. If your insecurities extrapolated that into uneducated and uninformed - then that’s on you. I don’t really care.

As far my opinion on the matter - We (allies included) should provide as many weapons and support to render the Russian military combat ineffective and assist removing them from Ukrainian territory. You got any other brain busters for me?

 

[wink]

I was less concerned with the grass than the a runway that looks like a poor country road.

Says the man that lands the Griz-o-copter on grass at home plate.

 

[Griz882]

Says the man that lands the Griz-o-copter on grass at home plate.

Sure, but the Griz-O-Copter has a built in weed whacker! (Assuming the grass is reeeeaaallly high)

 

[Mirage]

You... lack context of the region.

If you don’t understand the points I’ve made in my previous post about the rules based order, collective security, classical liberalism, and the foreign policy of the United States since the end of World War II...

Yeah you definitely never implied I disagreed with you due to a lack of understanding. That's all in my head. (Insert some condescending BS about not taking your own words seriously here).

As for France, you're evading my question, as suspected. You said France is doing a lot, I said they're doing virtually nothing (virtually means not literally, but something like "effectively", which we've seen was an accurate statement). So, I propose we should have done as much as France has done. Would you be happy if that was the course that Biden took? Or would that be appeasement?