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Europe under extreme duress

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Our own worst enemy is ourselves. We worry so much about China, Russia, etc... but they won't be our downfall.

How then shall we perform it?--At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?-- Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!--All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.

At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.


- Abraham Lincoln
January 27th, 1838, to the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois

He was 28 years old when he gave that speech.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
At least now he doesn't have to worry about answering in the Hague about deliberately targeting civilians.
Do you think any Russian military officers or leaders will ever actually be tried in The Hague?

Not sure how much stock I’d put in that possibility.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Do you think any Russian military officers or leaders will ever actually be tried in The Hague?

Not sure how much stock I’d put in that possibility.
Probably not. But then again those who might face charges will certainly face arrest and that will, forever, limit their ability to depart Russia.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Here is short, and excellent read on the current circumstances of the war. It is well worth the few minutes it takes to read and offers an interesting outlook.

 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Here is short, and excellent read on the current circumstances of the war. It is well worth the few minutes it takes to read and offers an interesting outlook.

Thank you for that historically grounded analysis- one of the best things I have read in awhile.

Perhaps the only thing missing was the deindustrialization that Europe will face now that cheap natural gas feedstocks as well as relatively cheap electricity/ heating are gone with the destruction of the Nordstream pipelines.
 

croakerfish

Well-Known Member
pilot
Not very convincing if you ask me. So, he's giving an interview in the HQ building that got rocked/destroyed a few days ago?

I'd need to see him holding today's newspaper to be convinced...
Even if he’s alive, so what? That tweet is completely idiotic. Intel gets shit wrong all the time that’s just the nature of the beast.
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Here is short, and excellent read on the current circumstances of the war. It is well worth the few minutes it takes to read and offers an interesting outlook.

Good article. I think it's a little too "Frog and the Scorpion". I don't think it fully addresses the "why", and the Russian endgame. I lean towards the Russians re-taking the ingress chokepoints in the former Warsaw pact, and the defense of the Motherland as the purpose of this CF, and Ukraine is a speedbump to that end...............or maybe I'm full of shit, and should pour myself another glass of wine.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Good article. I think it's a little too "Frog and the Scorpion". I don't think it fully addresses the "why", and the Russian endgame. I lean towards the Russians re-taking the ingress chokepoints in the former Warsaw pact, and the defense of the Motherland as the purpose of this CF, and Ukraine is a speedbump to that end...............or maybe I'm full of shit, and should pour myself another glass of wine.
Geopolitics are a thing, but nations also have identities and a collective unconscious. Random Ivan from some bumfuck village in Siberia isn't supporting Mother Russia because he cares about the chokepoints in the former Warsaw Pact. He's doing it because he thinks the khokhols are a fake ethnicity that's actually Russian. As if they were backwoods Appalachians claiming not to be Americans.

A Russian man named Joseph Brodsky won the 1987 Nobel Prize in Literature. And shortly thereafter in the early 1990s, decades before this war, he wrote a poem called On the Independence of Ukraine, where he shit all over a man named Taras Shevchenko, who's considered the father of Ukrainian literature, and claimed that on their deathbeds, all Ukrainians would actually be quoting Pushkin.

All of us War College grads geeked out on the operational level of war, centers of gravity, CONPLANs, OPLANs, blah blah blah. Perhaps a lesson we should all take away from Iraq and Afghanistan is that nations are groups of people with cultures, and not everything in the profession of arms is distillable down to maneuver axes and operational centers of gravity.
 
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Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Here is short, and excellent read on the current circumstances of the war. It is well worth the few minutes it takes to read and offers an interesting outlook.

I have a few nitpicks:

1) Russia has historically been unprepared for war, but it was actually moving towards being rather well-prepared for what would become the Great Patriotic War. Because of the failures in WWI and in fighting the Japanese, Russian military thinkers had conjured up a whole operational doctrine and a lot of rebuilding of the Russian military had been taking place. The problem was Stalin then liquidated the entire officer corps that developed it all.

2) Ralph Peters writes, "Clumsy on offense, stalwart on defense. On the attack, Russian forces are stiff, yet unsteady, and readily paralyzed by surprises (as we saw on the outskirts of Kyiv in the present war’s first days). They rely on mass and the readiness to suffer “intolerable” casualties. In World War II, a prevalent comment was “U nas naroda mnoga” (“We have a lot of people.”). Heartless it may have been, but that attitude got them to Berlin."

That is not true at all. Soviet doctrine emphasized mass in the same way the West does, i.e. when going on the offense you want a numerical advantage, but that you want a numerical advantage doesn't mean that your main plan of attack is to just rely on superior numbers. To the contrary, Soviet doctrine emphasized a lot of flexibility and maneuver in attacking forces. The goal of Soviet deep operations was constant attack and maneuver, attack and maneuver, to keep the enemy off balance and clueless as to what was happening. The enemy's entire ability to fight was to annihilated. Forces would attack along one line, then a follow-on force would attack, but maybe go in a different direction. A force would attack, expire, then another force in another area would launch an attack. Attacking forces would attack so as to penetrate the German defenses and then systematically break up German forces and divide them into isolated pockets that would be destroyed or starved out. Soviet forces would attack the main German force and then attack the secondary strong point that would be expected to come to the defense of the main force. They would also attack the third strongpoint. Once into the enemy's rear area, forces would begin engaging in destroying enemy command-and-control and infrastructure. Emphasis was placed on the ability of forces to constantly maneuver and move with speed, to be secretly divided up and joined with other forces or together to form new forces, to maintain the constant tempo of attack, attack, attack. And that was after all of the deception operations that would have been conducted. Sabotage operations might also have been conducted in the rear right prior to the attack.

Post-WWII, this doctrine continued on even more with the development of nuclear weapons. The Soviets recognized that large military formations were vulnerable to nuclear attack, and that thus in a WW3 scenario, speed, flexibility of forces, and surprise would be absolutely essential. Thus the Soviets downsized the scale of individual types of forces, making them more flexible, mobile, and easier to control.

The reason Putin's forces don't demonstrate any of this is because after the breakup of the Soviet Union, much of this knowledge was forgotten, and two, the Soviet Union after Stalin was not a one-man dictatorship, so professionalism in the military could be a lot more developed. With a one man dictatorship, such professionalism is dangerous, as the military could kick said ruler out of power.

3) Peters writes, "on the contrary, the unbounded readiness to inflict destruction on anything or anyone within range is a great advantage for any military power—despite our ahistorical insistence otherwise."

Well my historical knowledge here is limited, but from what I do know, this sounds like a bad idea. If anything, it can become a major handicap. The Germans learned this the hard way when they bombed the city of Stalingrad to smithereens. That was about the worst thing they could have done. The Soviets took the rubble and piled it up into lines of trenches layered one after the other throughout the city, that the Germans constantly had to cross over. These trenches connected special strong points which served to provide interlocking fields of machine gun fire that the Germans ran into while trying to cross over said trenches. The trenches also allowed constant communication to be maintained between the strongpoints. The Soviets were able to site snipers all over the city and to set up defenses to channel groups of German tanks into special killing zones where they would be destroyed. The Germans found it very hard to maneuver and thus the city served as a true meat grinder for German forces.

Plus inflicting destruction doesn't generally break the enemy. If anything it will strengthen their resolve. The Germans bombing the British didn't break their resolve, their bombing the Soviets didn't break theirs, Allied bombing of the Germans didn't break their will to fight, and bombing of the Japanese didn't break theirs. Even the atomic bombs alone may not have worked, there was also the Soviet Union declaring war on Japan. All the Russian artillery likely has done in destroying Ukrainian cities is to steel the resolve of the Ukrainians to further resist and turn said cities into fortresses should the Russians ever try to attack them with ground forces.

4) Russian army of now not same as in 2025 - this will be very interesting, because the thing is, Putin almost got deposed, so he will likely expect loyalty above all in his military leadership, above competence, so whether the environment will be one that allows for truly better command and control of their forces will be interesting
 
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