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Europe under extreme duress

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Likely a tactical victory but strategic blunder. US and international community is more likely to pressure Netanyahu to make concessions to Hamas to end hostilities now that Hezbollah has formally entered the conflict. And yes, everyone knows they were supporting Hamas, but imagine the response if we got attacked on US soil for supplying Israel.

Israel also did a poor IO job of controlling the messaging after the strike.

Could change if Trump gets elected, but that's a case of better to be lucky than good.
How so? Between the beeper / radio hits, other leadership elimination, and killing the leader of an organization that wants you wiped off the map, I would say it was pretty smart. Take out all of the principals and hundreds of operatives in short order puts the organization on its heels. Those that do survive will fight each other for control / try and purge who were the leaks for the beeper hit.

It also eliminates any brain power that Iran can use to use them as a puppet.

And if that’s not enough, when has Israel ever apologized? If there was a country that was firing rockets at us daily, we wouldn’t apologize for killing their leader.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I explained how so. Israel is trying to secure itself against Hamas and overtly dragging a very popular national government into the conflict will ultimately be counter-productive to its aims.

Envision that Hamas managed to coordinate an attack that killed Biden, Secretary Austin, and the COCOMs because *they* think the Democrat party is a terrorist organization. Does that do anything to help their cause for a single state Palestine? Does that actually remove all American "brain power" from political and military leadership? Or does that change our stance from "yeah I guess we'll sell you some weapons as long as you don't go scorched earth on Hamas and Gaza" to full-on use of military force with an international coalition?

Similarly, there's a reason we don't just make Ali Khamenei and Iran's top Generals disappear even though we could.

President Biden isn't happy with the escalation. It's not going to go well for Israel. Israel has now put itself in a position where it would have to invade Southern Lebanon to achieve its objectives or agree to concessions as mediated by the US and its allies.
 
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ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
I explained how so. Israel is trying to secure itself against Hamas and overtly dragging a very popular national government into the conflict will ultimately be counter-productive to its aims.

Envision that Hamas managed to coordinate an attack that killed Biden, Secretary Austin, and the COCOMs because *they* think the Democrat party is a terrorist organization. Does that do anything to help their cause for a single state Palestine? Does that actually remove all American "brain power" from political and military leadership? Or does that change our stance from "yeah I guess we'll sell you some weapons as long as you don't go scorched earth on Hamas and Gaza" to full-on use of military force with an international coalition?

Similarly, there's a reason we don't just make Ali Khamenei and Iran's top Generals disappear even though we could.

President Biden isn't happy with the escalation. It's not going to go well for Israel. Israel has now put itself in a position where it would have to invade Southern Lebanon to achieve its objectives or agree to concessions as mediated by the US and its allies.
Israel has virtue on their side. They cannot thrive as a society and repeat the last 50 years of the policies of Hez and Hamas.

Depopulate Gaza and West Bank. Provide a path for "Palestinians" to migrate and resettle on the African continent. Destroy the ideology calling for destruction of Israel. Then Israel should normalize and indeed invest in relationships with KSA and Emirates and build an economic and technological powerhouse.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I don't disagree with what you said. The problem is lumping Hezbollah in with Hamas and picking a fight with another state actor.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
I explained how so. Israel is trying to secure itself against Hamas and overtly dragging a very popular national government into the conflict will ultimately be counter-productive to its aims.

Envision that Hamas managed to coordinate an attack that killed Biden, Secretary Austin, and the COCOMs because *they* think the Democrat party is a terrorist organization. Does that do anything to help their cause for a single state Palestine? Does that actually remove all American "brain power" from political and military leadership? Or does that change our stance from "yeah I guess we'll sell you some weapons as long as you don't go scorched earth on Hamas and Gaza" to full-on use of military force with an international coalition?

Similarly, there's a reason we don't just make Ali Khamenei and Iran's top Generals disappear even though we could.

President Biden isn't happy with the escalation. It's not going to go well for Israel. Israel has now put itself in a position where it would have to invade Southern Lebanon to achieve its objectives or agree to concessions as mediated by the US and its allies.
Two fronts - and they just eliminated (maybe just temporarily) the paramilitary / authoritarian group within a state which another state is using as a proxy. This allows a focus back south. With the chaos that they caused within Hezbollah (not Hamas), they may not have to invade. Making the situation a one front issue is pretty strategic.

POTUS isn’t happy about the humanitarian situation in the south with the fight against Hamas. However, he just called Hezbollah’s leader death a “measure of justice”. I tend to agree, and probably the 300+ families of Marines and diplomats killed by his antics.

To your second point, we have killed and captured Iranian generals. See “Soleimani”.

Last, none of us know the real going’s on that led to their decision, so this is all a thought experiment. It could have been an opportunity, or there could have been a significant threat coming that they were preemptively targeting.
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I doubt IR wants any of this smoke. I'm guessing they'll try some face-saving action for domestic politics. Just my opinion...
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Two fronts - and they just eliminated (maybe just temporarily) the paramilitary / authoritarian group within a state which another state is using as a proxy. This allows a focus back south. With the chaos that they caused within Hezbollah (not Hamas), they may not have to invade. Making the situation a one front issue is pretty strategic.
I don't know why you are bolding Hezbollah. I used the word Hamas in my prior post because the primary conflict is between them and Israel, with Hezbollah supporting Hamas and the U.S. supporting Israel. That was the basis of using Hamas in my example of attacking American military and political leadership. There is a separate, protracted conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, but the two need to be analyzed separately.

I disagree with your assertion here that Israel's actions have consolidated their front against Lebanon. Implicit in this contention is that the Hezbollah leadership represents their theater-strategic center of gravity, which a C2 structure rarely does. The only way this helps Israel achieve its aims is if the change in leadership will result in a favorable shift in Lebanon's national policy - extremely unlikely in this case given Hezbollah's popular support (the political party, not the individuals). The other case where this helps is if Israel thinks it can defeat Hamas in the time it will take Hezbollah's leadership to reorganize - I also think that's completely unrealistic.

I think that the operation will have the opposite effect - it's going to strengthen Hezbollah's morale to fight against Israel and ramp up their aggressiveness in attacking them, creating an increasing distraction against their fight against Hamas. In other words, it's going to widen the two-front conflict rather than consolidate it. Meanwhile, popular support for Israel in the U.S. continues to decrease, making support cost increasing political capital - a fact the Biden administration is acutely aware of.

There may have been some alternative intel that motivated the cell-phone strike, but if that's the case I go back to my statement that Israel has a gross IO failure following the operation.

The only way for Israel to capitalize on the short-term gains to Hezbollah's degraded leadership is to take military action in southern Lebanon to defeat them before they can reorganize. Besides the fact that Israel lacks the military capability to do this without U.S. support that we aren't willing to give at this time, that option would significantly degrade Israel's legitimacy among other nations.

Biden did condemn Nasrallah, but he has also been steadfast about an internationally approved ceasefire plan that has been unpalatable to Netanyahu. Our primary policy goal is deescalation.

We assassinated Soleimani under a different administration with different policy goals. It also turned a lot of heads at the time. I already said a couple posts ago that Netanyahu's gambit would payoff with a Trump re-election.

None of this is an endoresement of Hezbollah or Hamas being the "good guys" like the idiots protesting on college campuses. They are, unequivocally, at odds with U.S. national security and present a threat to our families. But just like we can't off Kim Jong Un, Xi Jinping, Putin, or whoever, Israel can't off Hezbollah's leadership and "win." Closer to home, we can't execute a bunch of prominent cartel leaders in South America and celebrate a win against illegal immigration, fentanyl, and cocaine. It's not that simple, even if it was fucking cool that Israel wiped out senior leaders in a matter of a couple of days. In this context, we have to divorce ourselves from the emotional "hell yeah, they killed bad guys" from how to best achieve political objectives and end-states.
 
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hscs

Registered User
pilot
I bolded because Hamas and Hezbollah are not the same.

I think it was a smart move, and as I said, we only know a small part of the story.

We will have to agree to disagree.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.

Focus on completing the main objective rather than expanding the war out of revenge.

The key point being that Israel needs to maintain international legitimacy - not just with the US - in order to successfully restore a lasting non-Hamas government in Gaza. The author is similarly critical of Israel's PR campaign throughout the conflict.

Also, another take on how escalation is bad for both Israel and Hezbollah.
 
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Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Focus on completing the main objective rather than expanding the war out of revenge.
How do you know Israel’s recent strike isn’t part of their main objective?
The key point being that Israel needs to maintain international legitimacy - not just with the US - in order to successfully restore a lasting non-Hamas government in Gaza.
Why does Israel need to maintain international legitimacy? What countries or organizations do you think Israel should care about their perceptions?
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
How do you know Israel’s recent strike isn’t part of their main objective?

Why does Israel need to maintain international legitimacy? What countries or organizations do you think Israel should care about their perceptions?
Did you read the article? The author answers both of these questions way more clearly than I could.
 
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