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Europe under extreme duress

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
So Russia is instead a state security regime

Yes from 1825 onward Russian Army was and still is under political police control to exclude the coup undertaking. All Soviet time and today each unit from regiment and larger has KGB/FSB team of several operatives constantly on place. They have permanent office within unit's staff buildings, wear the same uniform that the unit and the OIC of that team is inevitably in the same rank that a unit CO.
In the Navy, each ship and sub of 1st rank (DDG and larger, and each nuke boat) crew is under supervision of FSB officer who has his own stateroom, though his rank is usually O-4. As a rule, he is former Navy junior officer (strangely enough, often of the black gang background) who'd been offered the transfer to FSB and he accepted it. He has his own encryption means and ship CO cannot ban him from access to radio room and sending the messages.
Who, in common practice, can have his own cipher on the ship except the CO? Someone with overriding abilities - i.e. commodore or flag officer, if he is embarked. So this FSB O-4 clearly has this overriding power over commanding O-6. This is the example of what the "political police control of military" is.
 
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Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Oh I agree that the Germans were crap at logistics, but otherwise, I would have to disagree. For one, this applies both ways, i.e. the only reason the Western Allied nations did as well as they did was due to the Soviets fighting the vast brunt of the German war machine. Neither side would have defeated the Germans conventionally on their own. But second, the Soviets did not advance simply and with clumsy moves, far from it. Initially, yes, they were clumsy, and tactically speaking, they remained rather inferior to the Germans throughout the war. The quality of the average Soviet soldier did not generally match that of the average German. But operationally, they proved themselves to be outright superior to the Germans. At Moscow, they moved a huge force into place without the Germans even being aware of it and counter-attacked. Then they did the same at Stalingrad, moving multiple armies into place without the Germans being aware. Then they did the same again at Kursk, and the same again regarding Operation Bagration, where they annihilated German Army Group Center.

I have seen that Khrushchev quote and agree, however Lend-Lease did not really kick into high-gear until later in the war. The Germans invaded the Soviet Union June 22, 1941. Pearl Harbor was December 7, 1941. The U.S. did not send over all that war material in that amount of time. The U.S. war machine wasn't even in high-gear yet. The first M4 "Sherman" tanks for example were not even ready for war until 1942. Their first use was in July 1942 in North Africa. During this period, the U.S. was concerned with supplying itself and the British most. The first Lend-Lease contributor to the Soviets actually was the British I believe. Initially, the United States was reluctant to send any major war material to the Soviets as the opinion of the U.S. and British was that the Soviet Union was going to collapse and so sending war equipment would likely have just meant supplying the Germans. It was only when the Soviets showed that they were not going to fall that Lend-Lease began to pick up. This began to show two days before Pearl Harbor on December 5th when they counter-attacked the Germans at Moscow. It majorly picked up in late 1943.

Also, the Soviets absolutely had tactical and strategic acumen, although more strategic. They had a lot of very brilliant generals.
Stunningly wrong at almost every level. You can’t seriously claim the Russians had any strategic plan beyond using up as many serfs as possible to absorb German bullets. FYI, lend lease to the Russians kicked in within 30 days of the German invasion and the U.S. war machine was in high gear in 1940 (you seem to not know that we activated our national guard and built basing for up to 100 combat divisions before mid-1941). The tanks we provided Russia were not that important…the POL, and other supply classes kept the Soviets alive from day one until the war ended - and by 1942 American air power allowed Russia to use their brunt’s strength against the Nazis. Basically I imagine you had a lot of neo-Marxist professors in college.
 

Mos

Well-Known Member
None
Stunningly wrong at almost every level. You can’t seriously claim the Russians had any strategic plan beyond using up as many serfs as possible to absorb German bullets. FYI, lend lease to the Russians kicked in within 30 days of the German invasion and the U.S. war machine was in high gear in 1940 (you seem to not know that we activated our national guard and built basing for up to 100 combat divisions before mid-1941). The tanks we provided Russia were not that important…the POL, and other supply classes kept the Soviets alive from day one until the war ended - and by 1942 American air power allowed Russia to use their brunt’s strength against the Nazis. Basically I imagine you had a lot of neo-Marxist professors in college.
I'm not sure why you bother answering this dude.
 

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
I got mine from comic books

Which were surprisingly pro-grunts, I have to tell:) Admitting that America is all about air power, a common cultural picture as it is, yet I think up to mid-Vietnam the image of Army and Marine grunts was rather heroic in such books I've seen. In that fucking Soviet Union I've grown in, the enlisted soldier was always the main cast, and audense viewed him smiling, looking at fliers and (especially) sailors as kinda circus' acrobats and clowns. And that average soldier of WWII as image had Soviet-made gun but American Willys to drive, American tobacco to smoke, American can of beef to eat, and American Studebaker to put MLRS onto it (T-34 wasn't local Wunderwaffe in popular believes, but MRL Katyusha was) - all grunt lifestyle's toys associated with American (and not British, BTW - Brits were just forwarders) help.

Soviet people subconsciousness were full of images of American goods, which was quite important - to have something personal of American origin was not about victory but rather about quality of life as such, and something lasting long as well. The only way to know: there's another world, mostly friendly, while both your own world and world of your direct enemy are harsh and rough.
 
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Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Stunningly wrong at almost every level. You can’t seriously claim the Russians had any strategic plan beyond using up as many serfs as possible to absorb German bullets. FYI, lend lease to the Russians kicked in within 30 days of the German invasion and the U.S. war machine was in high gear in 1940 (you seem to not know that we activated our national guard and built basing for up to 100 combat divisions before mid-1941). The tanks we provided Russia were not that important…the POL, and other supply classes kept the Soviets alive from day one until the war ended - and by 1942 American air power allowed Russia to use their brunt’s strength against the Nazis. Basically I imagine you had a lot of neo-Marxist professors in college.
Well, where to begin.

For starters, you mentioned about all the tanks and trucks and so forth we sent the Soviets. I pointed out that that didn't kick in until really about 1943, not before Pearl Harbor. As I pointed out, the U.S. wasn't going to send any major hardware to the Soviets that it was believed would likely fall to the Germans, and two, the U.S. war machine was not yet producing major output of such things. Yes, to the degree that it could be, the U.S. war machine was in high gear as much as it could be by 1940 as the Germans overrunning France panicked the U.S. military and immediately a crash program was implemented to start producing massive numbers of war material (tanks and so forth). And yes Lend-Lease started in 1941, but it didn't kick into high gear until 1943. American air power and Soviet military power worked hand-in-hand. Yes, Allied air power helped the Soviets, but Soviet military power and victories helped the Western Allies, A LOT.

Secondly, no I did not have Marxist professors in college for history and I did not get my knowledge of WWII from college. My knowledge of the Soviets and Germans in WWII, to a good degree, comes from historians such as David M. Glantz, who was a U.S. Army Colonel and pretty much the authority on the history of WWII on the Eastern Front, about as far from a Marxist as you can get. Here is part of the description on the back of one of his books, "Soviet Military Operational Art: In Pursuit of Deep Battle:"

Soviet understanding of the nature and importance of operational art in peace and war has been a hallmark of Soviet warfighting, providing a framework for the operations of multimillion man armies, often compensating for tactical failure, and producing the ultimate prize in modern warfare, strategic victory. Soviet mastery of operational art produced a host of great captains and numerous massive strategic victories, which rendered meaningless Western perceptions of Soviet military ineptitude. Whether or not those perceptions were correct, the truth emerged that the Soviets, like the proverbial chessmasters which they often are, were also astute masters of the higher levels of warfare, the operational and strategic levels.

So yes, the Russians actually DID have a strategic plan beyond throwing massive numbers of serfs at the Germans. The idea that the reason why the Germans lost to the Soviets was because of endless waves of Soviet zombie hordes of troops and tanks is a myth that was perpetuated by the German generals after the war because they didn't want to admit that they lost to those "untermenschen." Same as the Clean Wehrmacht myth and the Hitler-was-an-idiot myth. The myth was also to a degree perpetuated by the United States because it being the Cold War, we couldn't admit the Soviets had made a major contribution in terms of defeating the Germans.

Their main overarching strategy was to knock out German Army Group Center. However, they first knocked out Army Group South at Stalingrad in 1942 (well technically Army Group B as Hitler had split the army, but Army Group A then had to flee and barely got out). This was the first major Soviet victory over the Germans and a turning point of the war as it knocked the Germans onto the defensive. It also destroyed the best German army in the field, the Sixth Army. It was not due to brainlessly throwing waves at the Germans that they succeeded at Stalingrad, it was due to a great deal of tactical, operational, and strategic planning and thinking on their part and stupidity on the part of the Germans, who underestimated the Soviets because they were subhumans in their view, so clearly not up to the German standard of military skill, and two, the dude in charge of the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad, von Paulus, had never even commanded a division before.

On the waves myth, there is a kernel of truth to it, but you need to understand a few things:

1) After the war, the Germans were the sole source of historical knowledge for the most part on how things went down on the Eastern Front. It was obvious to the West that the Soviets were lying because they claimed they never lost a single battle. So the Germans seemed much more authoritative. There was also, due to a lot of historians and military people at the time in the West holding similar views about the peoples of the East as the Germans, a much greater willingness to believe the German side of the story.

2) After the Soviet Union broke apart, the archives in Russia were opened up and so historians got to go and see the actual documents of how the Soviets recorded things going down. Not surprisingly, they had themselves propagandized and lied. But so had the Germans. BIG TIME.

3) At the start of the invasion, Axis forces outnumbered Soviet forces. German forces alone did not, but it was German forces along with Italian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc...invading.

4) The Soviets never in the war possessed enough manpower to overwhelm the Germans with just pure numbers. The reason this myth gets perpetuated is because as the Germans started to lose big, their numbers declined, but two, the Soviets were HIGHLY-SKILLED at secretly maneuvering large armies right in front of the Germans without their knowing.

5) The Russians are who invented the concept of the operational level of war. This grew during the 19th and early 20th century as Russian generals realized that modern wars (at least as far as Russia would fight for its security) would entail industrialization and massive forces set on massive fronts.

6) You have to take into account what time period of the war you're talking about. During the initial parts of the invasion, yes, the Soviets, not having any idea what they were doing, began throwing waves at the Germans. This was from about 1941-1942. The Soviets really began learning, both from experience fighting the Germans and their own doctrines, through 1943. And through 1944-1945, they began royally kicking German butt due to operational and strategic mastery.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Back to the modern…I read today that some economic analysts predict it is possible that inflation in Russia will reach 30-35% by the end of the year. While Putin might be able to brush off 10,000 dead soldiers I doubt he can withstand that blow for long. @Max the Mad Russian when are the next elections…or is Putin basically president for life. The geopolitical world is changing because of this and so is the global economy.

I imagine NATO will come out looking good and the US will break their Middle East addiction as well (and we all thought China would do that!). Of course there will be a Russia, but how far do some of you imagine the world will go to Punish them after the dust settles?
 

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
2024 according to well, RU constitution from little "c", but it seems to me he doesn't have such time being alive
 
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Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
Europe, well, DE and IT most of all, needs 5 to 6 years to reject the RU natural gas off. Maybe faster if JP, ROK and eventually CN provide gas tankers in needed numbers to load in Oman
 
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Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Back to the modern…I read today that some economic analysts predict it is possible that inflation in Russia will reach 30-35% by the end of the year. While Putin might be able to brush off 10,000 dead soldiers I doubt he can withstand that blow for long. @Max the Mad Russian when are the next elections…or is Putin basically president for life. The geopolitical world is changing because of this and so is the global economy.

I imagine NATO will come out looking good and the US will break their Middle East addiction as well (and we all thought China would do that!). Of course there will be a Russia, but how far do some of you imagine the world will go to Punish them after the dust settles?
I am hoping it is done smartly by the West as we don't want Russia to become another version of post-WWI Germany.
 
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