Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[A4sForever]

@A4s...did the Dallas Adversary unit have a VF/VA designation? i.e. VF-126 Seahawks, VF-127 Desert Bogies, etc. I Googled but it seems there's not a lot of info about them out there.

We were a not-so-secret unit ... ... but still a secret. Make sense???

NARU Dallas "owned" and maintained the aircraft, but was not qualified on paper to "fly" the aircraft. Don't ask me why -- it's a long Navy bureaucratic story. We were a "self-help" unit and as such, we had to look for a "sponsor" who was qualified and willing to "fly" the aircraft (on paper) as well as provide us with a garden spot for our mandatory 2 weeks ACDUTRA in the summer.

We said: "How about the P.I.?? We'd like to go back there, yeas???"

And VRC-50 said: "O.K."

..... although in the end, we flew so many drills and TEMACDU in CONUS and Canada that we only went to CUBI three times in 9-10 years of flyin' Adversary out of NAS DALLAS.

I think that's about it. So don't say I never did nuthin' for you ...

 

[FastMover]

I think that's about it. So don't say I never did nuthin' for you ...

Thanks...I understand (I think). So the Dallas unit was kind of like a Detachment of VRC-50?

It's always interesting to read about the more obscure Squadrons out there like the FUBIJARs, Fighting Hobos, etc. Good stuff.

 

[A4sForever]

..... So the Dallas unit was kind of like a Detachment of VRC-50?....

Affirm. It was a very, very good deal ...

 

[Uncle Fester]

Alas for the hoary Olden Days when you only had to lay a fine veneer of paper over a good deal to make it happen. No longer, more's the pity.

 

[FlyMikeFly]

My old CO (Harrier pilot) went to Fighter Weapons School. So, no it's not all FA-18 pilots.

Correction, he went to the FWS to fly adversary, not as a student. Thanks HarrierDude for the correction.

 

[CenterMass]

I've got a couple videos of a 1v1 fight against an F-15C, just never gotten around to post them here.
S/F

Brining this one back from the dead. I think I found Jarhead's F-15 vids, the POV is very similar to his F-16 vid.

http://www.vitaf.it/AMVI_Sito/Multimedia/Video/RealVideo/F-15-DACT1.zip

http://www.vitaf.it/AMVI_Sito/Multimedia/Video/RealVideo/F-15-DACT2.zip

From what I have seen of real ACM vids, it would appear that extensions are not practiced / allowed during training. Is this due to missile threats, fuel concerns, or something else?

I know extensions have been made in real combat engagements, but these were Vietnam era jets.

 

[A4sForever]

^ Great stuff -- both ACM/BFM threads. I'd kinda forgotten about them. It's stuff that will keep you alive ...

Certainly more productive than the latest YouTube postings ...

 

[MPH]

A4: That a VF-126 tail?

In reference to the conversation, I was golfing with a pair of former 126 guys and the fat joke was made: "You see, the G's they drag all of your bodyweight down to your midsection."

The other one replied: "I never pulled any G's in the A-4 or the 18, I was always too slow to get any."

 

[A4sForever]

A4: That a VF-126 tail?....

Nope: DALLAS RANGERS

And even thought it wasn't necessary to win a fight, I pulled plenty of "G's" in the A-4 over the years ...

Preparation H was my friend ...

 

[Catmando]

From what I have seen of real ACM vids, it would appear that extensions are not practiced / allowed during training. Is this due to missile threats, fuel concerns, or something else?
I know extensions have been made in real combat engagements, but these were Vietnam era jets.

Interesting question, and I don't know the answer. Maybe somebody else can weigh in.

What I do know was that the extension/pitch-black maneuver was the F-4's most fundamental ACM/BFM maneuver, and it was always routinely practiced and used on every ACM training flight. This was because with the F-4's higher wing loading, it could not get into a turning fight with the MiG's of that era (or A-4 adversaries, either ) and hope to win.

Therefore, utilizing the F-4's greater thrust-to-weight, acceleration and speed advantages, instead of getting sucked into a tight turn with the tighter turning bogie, the F-4 pilot would quick turn, unload, extend, and then use a violent nose-high pitch-black maneuver back into the bogie. This would be done repeatedly.....until the kill, or bingo.

The F-14 occasionally used the same maneuver, but not nearly as much… for at least 2 reasons – 1. It had much better turning performance, and 2. With the very early "A" models, you often compressor stalled one or both engines on the pitch-back.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Can I post some SLAM-ER end-game footage for the peanut gallery to critique?

 

[A4sForever]

Interesting question, and I don't know the answer. Maybe somebody else can weigh in......

I certainly don't "know" any more than you do, Cat, but I remember talkin' about this very subject in the middle/late '80's as the all-aspect/improved Soviet missiles started to make themselves known ... or even French missiles and/or older USA variants on potential bad-guys' pylons --- and especially after the Israeli's showed the value of an unexpected improved AIM-9 "face-shot" on the merge w/ the Syrians ...

The answer was:

If you try to extend/run away from the center of gravity of the turning/in-close/ fight, you're gonna get shot with a missile, either going out or coming back .... period.

So the SOLUTION was stay & play and kill the other guy -- or don't even show up in the first place.

Again .... 20 years ago, but it all sounded reasonable and still sounds reasonable....

 

[HeyJoe]

A4: That a VF-126 tail?

In reference to the conversation, I was golfing with a pair of former 126 guys and the fat joke was made: "You see, the G's they drag all of your bodyweight down to your midsection."

The other one replied: "I never pulled any G's in the A-4 or the 18, I was always too slow to get any."

Heyday of VF-126 and TOPGUN A-4s at Miramar circa 1992

Photos by HJ

 

[Catmando]

...
The answer was:

If you try to extend/run away from the center of gravity of the turning/in-close/ fight, you're gonna get shot with a missile, either going out or coming back .... period.

So the SOLUTION was stay & play and kill the other guy -- or don't even show up in the first place.
....
reasonable....

Well, as you well know, back in the day if 'old Smokey' stayed and played with an A-4 or a MiG (given equally talented drivers), old Smokey would get burned.

Likewise, if 'Smokey' extended out away from the fight, a tight-turning A-4/MiG could also wrap it up and get the quick Fox-2.

But for us, a well-flown extension maneuver was the only way to go. And if flown correctly – given the enemy's missiles of the day – it was a somewhat safe maneuver if done well – indeed it was the only maneuver for us, other than a fly-thru against an agressive bandit. And we did often have head-on capability coming out of the pitch-back.

Different aircraft, weapons systems, and times dictate different tactics. But I would think many varied manuevers would be practiced, to have both the experience, and the added arrows in your quiver, regardless.

Having said all that, I am aware like you that there was a dramatic shift in BFM theory about that time for whatever reasons.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Does it come with the obligitory "Fumble" call?

(Easy...., its a joke.)

Only if you are a P-3 guy whoah!