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Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

jarhead

jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot
heyjoe said:
No worries....it was a response to Raptor10's insinuation that Deep Strike wasn't needed because Tomahawk could do the job and hypersonic missiles would be even better.

I'm of the opinion that a loitering manned aircraft with a mixed load and a gun is optimum for OIF and OEF. Change scenarios and maybe a stealthy deep strike aircraft or Tomahawk start topping out the list or a B-52 with max loadout and on station time, but it can't come down in close when needed.
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I agree

heyjoe said:
That's Rear Admiral Mark "MRT" Fox
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You ever see the HUD footage from both shootdowns? Proved #1 - the AIM-9 had pretty good range, #2 - the AIM-7 was pretty good at the merge, and #3 - it's better to be lucky than good ...
 
Nose

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
jarhead said:
You ever see the HUD footage from both shootdowns? Proved #1 - the AIM-9 had pretty good range, #2 - the AIM-7 was pretty good at the merge, and #3 - it's better to be lucky than good ...
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AND they both started with a "Popup BANDIT" call from the Hummer!
 
HeyJoe

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nose said:
AND they both started with a "Popup BANDIT" call from the Hummer!
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....who was the really on top of his game that day. I was on the strike to east and the comms were so convoluted and MiGs were running away from our package that was the eastern pinch flow by JFK. We surmised later that they left their orbits near H-2 and were simply flying IFR (I Follow Road... the only road out there) to supposed safety at H-3 only to run into elements of the Sara strike and the western pinch. The MiG sweep had already swept and these guys actually could have ruined a lot of people's day if they had better SA. The call was timely and MRT and Mongo responded before the section of MiGs blew past them. A kill's a kill.
 
jarhead

jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot
heyjoe said:
... A kill's a kill
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affirm ... a kills a kills, even if you do lob an Aim-9 when you think you have a Sparrow under the trigger.

the whole sequence of events gave me helmet fire just watching & listening to the HUD tapes, I can't imagine what was going through those dudes minds.

S/F
 
Nose

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
heyjoe said:
....who was the really on top of his game that day. I was on the strike to east and the comms were so convoluted and MiGs were running away from our package that was the eastern pinch flow by JFK. We surmised later that they left their orbits near H-1 and were simply flying IFR (I Follow Road... the only road out there) to supposed safety at H-2 only to run into elements of the Sara strike and the western pinch. The MiG sweep had already swept and these guys actually could have ruined a lot of people's day if they had better SA. The call was timely and MRT and Mongo responded before the section of MiGs blew past them. A kill's a kill.
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Yeah, but VF-103 bubbas have screamed ever since then that THEY had the Bandits LOCKED for about 4 minutes, but the Hummer was on the wrong frequency and they couldn't get the Dec they needed to pop them. Shed (God rest him!) once told me (with a straight face) that the moles in the back of the Tigertail Hummer were to blame for the rise of the Hornet and the downfall of the Tomcat. Oh the Humanity!!
 
HeyJoe

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nose said:
Yeah, but VF-103 bubbas have screamed ever since then that THEY had the Bandits LOCKED for about 4 minutes, but the Hummer was on the wrong frequency and they couldn't get the Dec they needed to pop them. Shed (God rest him!) once told me (with a straight face) that the moles in the back of the Tigertail Hummer were to blame for the rise of the Hornet and the downfall of the Tomcat. Oh the Humanity!!
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Then they could have stripped two and done a visual ID. Tomcats that blew by bogies because they couldn't talk to Hummer...YGTSM!
Since I was mission commander for HVU escort (Prowlers) for JFK strike, I had grand view via Link 4 of our sweepers going towards H-2 and the western CAP heading southwest towards H-3. I figured someone would get engaged. Another CAP faded north and then tried to run us down from behind as we exited. I am really appreciative of AWACS spotting that and bringing up F-15s to handle them while keeping us tied to Strike Group. Wish those Prowlers could have been faster...we were ready to strip two of the four escorts, when I detected the Eagles coming at us supersonic from the south. What was that someone said about being lucky?
 
Uncle Fester

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
heyjoe said:
Then they could have stripped two and done a visual ID. Tomcats that blew by bogies because they couldn't talk to Hummer...YGTSM!
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The fighter guys have a good day, it's cuz they're so goddamned good. Fighter guys have a bad day..."What the fuck, Tiger?"

The more things change, etc.

Oh, well...one of these days, it'll go off with the Chinamen and there'll be enough Su-30MKKs and J-fighters for everybody.
 
whalepelt

whalepelt

New Member
jarhead said:
the whole sequence of events gave me helmet fire just watching & listening to the HUD tapes, I can't imagine what was going through those dudes minds.
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It appears my google-fu is weak. Does anyone know of somewhere the uninitiated could get the full story on this shoot-down?
 
bunk22

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
whalepelt said:
It appears my google-fu is weak. Does anyone know of somewhere the uninitiated could get the full story on this shoot-down?
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Should be able to find the video.....I've both on the net, via youtube or something. From a non-fighter/tactical guy, still fun to watch, no matter who screwed up, didn't get the kill, whatever.
 
Flash

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nose said:
Yeah, but VF-103 bubbas have screamed ever since then that THEY had the Bandits LOCKED for about 4 minutes, but the Hummer was on the wrong frequency and they couldn't get the Dec they needed to pop them. Shed (God rest him!) once told me (with a straight face) that the moles in the back of the Tigertail Hummer were to blame for the rise of the Hornet and the downfall of the Tomcat. Oh the Humanity!!
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Are some guys really that delusional?
 
Nose

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
Flash said:
Are some guys really that delusional?
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You had to know Shed. He was very passionate about his work and did it well. I don't think he really believed it, but he really said it!

If you follow HeyJoe's above link to Wilcox's book, a few pages further in it talks about the Tomcats. "Fitzpatrick" that Wilcox talked to was the XO of VF-103 at the time and the lead for the Tomcat sweepers. They wanted that shot very badly, but did the right thing and held their trigger fingers waiting for a declaration from the Hummer. They were (rightfully so) worried about blue on blue.
 
HeyJoe

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nose said:
They wanted that shot very badly, but did the right thing and held their trigger fingers waiting for a declaration from the Hummer. They were (rightfully so) worried about blue on blue.
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They were rightfully concerned as the JFK strike was turning towards them from east to west at same time pushing the MiGs west.
 
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