Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[Uncle Fester]

The top-down scope view is very different from the soda-straw-of-death fighter radar view, especially overland. Reading radar in the Hummer is an art. The older guys (who grew up with the APS-138 and shittier computers) are better at ignoring the symbology and tuning and reading the raw video than us younger guys, which is really the trick. The MC/ACIS in the HE2000 gives you less-wrong-but-still-wrong picture and it's harder to scrape away the kuldge. I've ridden with a couple of really good skippers who were masters of the radar-jitsu. Things will change a lot with the Hummer-D's new system, more akin to what the AWACS has.

Still, I've always thought that E-2-bound SNFOs should go through the Air-Air syllabus at VT-86 and learn what it's like to look through the soda straw, for the same reason we train them to do low-levels and airnavs - the more familiar you are with what the fast-mover needs, the better controller you'll be.

 

[HeyJoe]

The top-down scope view is very different from the soda-straw-of-death fighter radar view, especially overland. Reading radar in the Hummer is an art. The older guys (who grew up with the APS-138 and shittier computers) are better at ignoring the symbology and tuning and reading the raw video than us younger guys, which is really the trick. The MC/ACIS in the HE2000 gives you less-wrong-but-still-wrong picture and it's harder to scrape away the kuldge. I've ridden with a couple of really good skippers who were masters of the radar-jitsu. Things will change a lot with the Hummer-D's new system, more akin to what the AWACS has.

Still, I've always thought that E-2-bound SNFOs should go through the Air-Air syllabus at VT-86 and learn what it's like to look through the soda straw, for the same reason we train them to do low-levels and airnavs - the more familiar you are with what the fast-mover needs, the better controller you'll be.

Couldn't agree more....I swapped rides with VAW-123 in 1985 and was amazed with what I saw on the scope: looked like bunch of bananas at range. The skipper was on left and he was a true Jitsu master. I had a brand new ensign on my right trying to deal with my squadronmates who were very impatient. I could see why responses weren't always forthcoming while trying to make sense of the display and monitor so many radios. He was a bit intimidated by the RIOs demanding info, but eventually turned out alright and just finshed a tour as Commodore.

I came away with a lot of respect for the controllers who could rapidly make sense of it and for thos ewho ride in the tube. Sitting on a cat in the dark shaking at full power with little SA was unsettling. Don't know how you guys do it.

 

[Pugs]

Still, I've always thought that E-2-bound SNFOs should go through the Air-Air syllabus at VT-86 and learn what it's like to look through the soda straw, for the same reason we train them to do low-levels and airnavs - the more familiar you are with what the fast-mover needs, the better controller you'll be.

IIRC they sorta did when I went through 86 circa 87. Had a roomate get Hawkeye's and I recall him doing something like an abbreviated 10 flight course and some sims before he went off to Miramar.

 

[jarhead]

just to throw it out there ... the title of the thread should be:

fox 2, oops, fox 1, splash 1; fox 1, splash 1 (at the merge)

S/F

 

[Uncle Fester]

IIRC they sorta did when I went through 86 circa 87. Had a roomate get Hawkeye's and I recall him doing something like an abbreviated 10 flight course and some sims before he went off to Miramar.

Me and my fellow mole-selects had to audit the -86 ground school class, but no flights. Pretty useless. There was some introductory "You're going to be Fighter Guys now, we are so awesome" mutual masturbation, followed by some very basic AIC mechanics, and mostly how to work the T-39N for air-to-air...the instructors made it pretty clear that they could care less if we even stayed awake. Plus, between us then and actually doing AICs were SERE and six months of E-2 systems. So, to sum up: class was useless.

I'd be curious to know why and when those flights at -86 went away, if they were doing them back in the day. Of course, that was in the era of "FITAEWWING" and all...my guess would be it went away somewhere between giving away Miramar and shutting down VAW-110, with a little "cost analysis" thrown in.

 

[Praying4OCS]

SU-30K, Mirage 2000 and F-15

Thought I'd share this pic. The SU is one BIG jet.

 

[MasterBates]

Where is it?

 

[FLYTPAY]

Awesome icon with a red X in the middle.

 

[Praying4OCS]

Hmmmmm.....it was there yesterday.
Here is the link.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/F-15_Su30_Mir2000.jpg

 

[FrankTheTank]

http://bobandsylvia.com/FIGHTER.htm

A video of it....

 

[joemcspeed]

Great video... thanks for the add.

Its actually quite alarming to have that type of compitition. The flat spin recovery and vertical stall were very impressive. I hope that thing is slow as shit and we can send one up its tailpipe.

 

[WishICouldFly]

Just in case any country we fight actually has enough money to buy one.
(Other than China lol)

 

[scoober78]

Couple things I would point out...

Those flight regimes look great in airshows, and although my BFM knowledge is low, I have to think that most of them are completely useless in a real engagement. Flying at 80 degrees nose up, 50 knots ground speed looks cool as hell, but I would think, has to go in the "Who gives a #$%^ category in a real engagement.

It isn't all the machine. F-80 vs. Mig-15...F-4 vs. ME-262 vs. P-51D, ME-109 vs. Hawker Hurricane...all these are arguable but that is the point. An advantage in a few performance categories does not make a more effective airplane.

Aircraft does not equal weapon system. Back to your hole Chicken Little...

By all accounts though, a very cool aircraft. Always been a fan of canards...

 

[Praying4OCS]

More interesting info on the SU...

 

[Praying4OCS]

Also...