Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[SemperGumbi]

Oh boy.....well, I am not a fighter guy so my knowledge is probably a lot less than theirs for A-A weapons, but jeez...

Infared aquisition isn't exactly a brand new technology. It has some pretty big limitations at present time.

As far as those envolopes go.....yeah...take all #'s you see with a grain of salt. That is just a good rule of thumb.
But I must say the the AESA is a pretty impressive piece of gear found on the Super Bug. So if you want to play technology war from Jane's, take a look at that radar.

Now on to real stuff!
I am taken at how large the damn thing is. I have no idea what its radar cross section is, but man it is a big sucka. I thought the Eagle blocked the sun. And I don't exactly fly a little jet, either.

So that is a pretty cool picture, I'd never seen it before and it give a real perspective on the actual size of the Flanker.

 

[a_m]

According to AW&ST Apparently, (and this is over 1 yr old info) the USAF sent a squadron of their newest F-15C's to India to do DACM with their Mig's. The Mig's, equipped with the super-duper infrared, just waxed the Eagles in almost every engagement. If this is very out-of-date gouge, then I apologize in advance.

I've heard this as well from other sources.

 

[whalepelt]

I've heard this as well from other sources.

The Air Force has actually kinda been trumpeting that around. Part of the pitch for the F-22.

 

[MPH]

Apparently, (and this is over 1 yr old info) the USAF sent a squadron of their newest F-15C's to India to do DACM with their Mig's. The Mig's, equipped with the super-duper infrared, just waxed the Eagles in almost every engagement. If this is very out-of-date gouge, then I apologize in advance.

As said before: I'm a know nothing.

That being said, what I have heard about Cope India (the exercise you're talking about) was that it was heavily skewed to India's advantage e.g. WVR engagements only + India having helmet mounted sights etc.

I have wondered if the Air Force considered taking a dive to push for more 22's though. I think that's what the post above is aluding to.

As stated however, I'm just another moron.

 

[Fog]

Infra-red technology isn't new, but IR gear that passively provides range & azimuth info is fairly unprecedented in the U.S. I'm an old F-4 RO, but I've heard of nothing like this in our current inventory. AESA radar is great, but it's putting energy into the air. IR gear doesn't - that's big in the Air-to-Air world.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Infra-red technology isn't new, but IR gear that passively provides range & azimuth info is fairly unprecedented in the U.S. I'm an old F-4 RO, but I've heard of nothing like this in our current inventory. AESA radar is great, but it's putting energy into the air. IR gear doesn't - that's big in the Air-to-Air world.

Didn't the F-14 have a system? IRTS (or something like that)? Schnugg? HeyJoe?

 

[SkywardET]

Infra-red technology isn't new, but IR gear that passively provides range & azimuth info is fairly unprecedented in the U.S.

It's pretty unprecidented because it's pretty impossible unless there's a catch. Of course the inner workings of such a technology would not be broadcast, but it is impossible to determine range from a single IR sensor.

Now if the Flanker has two sensors far apart, say at the wing tips, it could use small-angle calculations to get range. That would also explain the size of the jet.

 

[raptor10]

It's pretty unprecidented because it's pretty impossible unless there's a catch. Of course the inner workings of such a technology would not be broadcast, but it is impossible to determine range from a single IR sensor.

Now if the Flanker has two sensors far apart, say at the wing tips, it could use small-angle calculations to get range. That would also explain the size of the jet.

IRST systems can incorporate laser range-finders in order to provide full fire-control solutions for cannon fire or launching missiles. Without knowing the range the IRST can only provide direction and thus not enough information for aiming weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infra-red_search_and_track

 

[HeyJoe]

Infra-red technology isn't new, but IR gear that passively provides range & azimuth info is fairly unprecedented in the U.S. I'm an old F-4 RO, but I've heard of nothing like this in our current inventory. AESA radar is great, but it's putting energy into the air. IR gear doesn't - that's big in the Air-to-Air world.

The early Navy F-4Bs had one for awhile as did the F-102/F-106 so it isn't unprecedented, US didn't evolve it the way the Soviet designers did and integrate a laser rangefinder.

Didn't the F-14 have a system? IRTS (or something like that)? Schnugg? HeyJoe?

The D model F-14s had a digital IRSTS and the EO system of the F-14A/B models (TCS). It will be interesting when Air Force sends their F-22s to India to square off against the Flankers there (that dominated the F-15s and F-16s in the past).

 

[raptor10]

More on the Cope India thing
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000976.html

 

[HeyJoe]

Advice to the newbies re: missile capabilities. Those who talk, don't know. Those who know can't talk . . .

These charts helped RAAF obtain ASRAAM to redress the inadequacy of AIM-9M vs AA-11. AA-11 showed up in 1985 and indeed gave the Soviets an edge. Navy vs Air Force lab rivalry were the cause. Both flew then next generation seekers in 1976 timeframe at Nellis AFB as part of AIM/ACEVAL, but fought over which was best solution. This was rematch over Sidewinder va Facon rivalry in 50s in which China Lake "home-grown" Sidewinder embarassed Air Force mega buck Falcon program. Air Force stuck with Falcons only to have them perform miserably over North Vietnam, which resulted in field mods to their F-4D Phantoms* to adapt them to carry Sidewinders. Congress and OSD had been pressuring services to join together on aircraft and missile programs so F-4 was forced on Navy and F-111 was almost forced on Navy setting the stage for a showdown at Nellis. The bickering was so bad that Congress denied each service its next SRM program (Navy wanted AGILE and Air Force wanted CLAW) and dictated that follow-on to AIM-9L be Joint so AIM-9M, a modest evolution of the Sidwinder family was the result. The Soviets were watching and embarked on crash program to counter AGILE/CLAW high off boresight/increased kinematic capability. AA-11 Archer (R-73) was the result and it was integrated with a Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS) on the MiG-29 Fulcrum initially and later on the Su-27 Flanker. They went from being a generation behind to a generation ahead virtually overnight. Interestingly, since AGILE actually flew, they were convinced it was a reality and didn't think they were ahead. Some China Lake experts say with a sigh that AA-11 is their design because Soviets used so much of the AGILE characteristics.

Early developmental AGILE SRM at China Lake in 1970

US Navy Photo

Note: Since US couldn't agree, the next chance to stay ahead was a US-European agreement to introduce a Family of Weapons with US taking lead on AMRAAM and Europe taking lead on SRM developments. The UK was to build the missile body and German had lead for seeker. UK delivered on their end, but Germans ran into delays and funding issues so program came to a standstill. In aftermath of Desert Storm, the JROC weighed in and assigned Navy lead to develop a counter to AA-11 and Soviet designed IRCM. That became AIM-9X. Meanwhile, UK went searching for a seeker for their SRM. That became the revived ASRAAM program and the US Hughes company developed a Focal Plane Array with high off boresight capability for them. That same seeker was part of the Hughes AIM-9X proposal that won the AIM-9X program and is flying today. The Germans eventually worked through their issues and built their seeker and integrated into to the IRIS-T program. The Isrealis didn't want to wait so they beat everyone to the flightline with Python IV and French followed the crowd with MICA IR.


*Air Force took delivery of F-4C Phantoms that were Sidewinder capable because they were essentially Navy production models, but the F-4D was built to Air Force specifications WITHOUT Sidewinder capability and sent to SEA with AIM-4 Falcons. Col Robin Olds was wing commander when they arrived in Thailand and he ordered the field mods after witnessing their miserable ACM performance.

 

[Praying4OCS]

The early Navy F-4Bs had one for awhile as did the F-102/F-106 so it isn't unprecedented, US didn't evolve it the way the Soviet designers did and integrate a laser rangefinder.



The D model F-14s had a digital IRSTS and the EO system of the F-14A/B models (TCS). It will be interesting when Air Force sends their F-22s to India to square off against the Flankers there (that dominated the F-15s and F-16s in the past).

The F-35 should also have IRST but it is known as Electro-optical target sensor (EOTS).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F-35_EOTS.jpeg

 

[DSL1990]

i bet the JSF will eat the SU flanker's lunch! :batman_12

 

[Praying4OCS]

A right rear view of an F/A-18A Hornet aircraft of Reserve Composite Fighter Squadron 12 (VFC-12) parked on the squadron flight line. The aircraft is in the unique color scheme of a Russian Su-27 Flanker adversary aircraft.

 

[Praying4OCS]

Here is a great video that shows a close-up of the SU-30's vectoring abilities.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xuNd8tKm0UA