Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[bunk22]

Love it :icon_smil

 

[TheBubba]

I feel like I was born a few years too late...

 

[a_m]

I can only hope to fly against one of those soon.

 

[Huggy Bear]

I wonder if the russians have any of our stuff.

 

[arbor]

I wonder if the russians have any of our stuff.

They sure do

 

[yak52driver]

I'll be down at Pride in Rockford next weekend doing some formation flying with other Yaks. If the Flankers are accessible I'll get some pictures to post here.

 

[HeyJoe]

Times have indeed changed.

I'll ask the obvious question: why doesn't NSAWC just buy a few of these?

The easy answer is NSAWC doesn't (nor can it) buy aircraft. The way the Naval Aviation Enterprise (NAE) works with Commander Naval Air Forces (CNAF) at top of the triangle calling the shots on requirements (aircraft, people to fly them, maintain them, etc.) and OPNAV N88 then working the PPBES process to obtain the funding meet those established requirements and NAVAIR actually "buying" the aircraft (or leasing if that makes better sense).

If your next question is why doesn't NSAWC ask CNAF to work the NAE "triangle" to get NAVAIR to buy them? When Soviet Union was no longer and Flankers, Fulcrums or anything you wanted was available and at a bargain to boot, this option was looked at, but the operating costs were insane because their engines aren't even close to Western, much less US standards. At that time, the US Navy Adversary ranks were being depleted rapidly anyway in quest for Les Aspin's peace dividend at expense of services.

Bringing in such aircraft as a commercial services operation has been a wet dream for many former TOPGUN/Adversary drivers for decades. Really hard to make the cost equation work. ATAC is arguably one of the more successful operators of foreign aircraft, but to make it work, they chose simple, low cost aircraft like the SAAB Draken, Hawker Hunter and IAI Kfir.

As to NSAWC and other Navy/Marine Adversary operators, they also have been relegated to lower cost options after losing the only procurement of a dedicated 4th Gen asset, the F-16N to stress cracks. Today, the F-5E has been in service as an Adversary for almost 35 years and been augmented by a single squadron of "surplus" F/A-18 Hornets at Oceana (VFC-12) and the NSAWC F/A-18 Hornets and F-16A/Bs restored to flying status from desert storage (originally purchased by Pakistan, but locked in embargo status until relations improved after 9/11). The F-5E has been so easy and low cost to operate that former Swiss F-5Es have been purchased and modified to F-5N configuration (last one was just delivered). But is it a 4th Gen fighter? No. And do the Adversary F/A-18 and F-16s have everything the threats they emulate have in terms of equipment? Also no. Would a real, live Su-27 be ideal? For many reasons, absolutely! But it comes down to money that isn't there.

RADM Emerson, current commander of NSAWC has waged a successful campaign however to upgrade the aircraft at NSAWC to go from cast-offs from the fleet inventory that do not even allow the instructors to stay current on aircraft their "students" operate when Air Wings arrive for training. Unlike the USAF counterpart to NSAWC at Nellis AFB that gets the latest aircraft like the F-22 as they are introduced to service, NSAWC has always had to scrounge for aircraft similar to TOPGUN's legacy of begging, borrowing and not quite stealing beat-up aircraft like their original A-4Es and former USAF T-38s yanked from a scrap heap. Only in past year has that unfortunate disparity changed as two E-2Cs are now on the ramp and flying as well as first F/A-18Fs and MH-60S model Knighthawks with expectation of EA-18G arrival as they start to arrive in sufficient numbers. All this activity is closely worked with CNAF and NSAWC has to compete for aircraft and parts once they get them. When I was last at Fallon only 2 months ago, their early model F/A-18Cs were all down, but thanks to Emerson's successful efforts. At least NSAWC has been able to use contractor maintenance to avoid the continual VX squadron nightmare. So to now answer your question fully, NSAWC would likely love to have Su-27s on the ramp (at least N7/TOPGUN would), but since they can't buy them and CNAF is still trying to find funding to fill the Strike Fighter bathtub, I have no hopes CNAF would be in a postion to do so either. The only option I see as viable is to lease them on a "presentation" basis much like the ATAC Kfirs that current support Air Wing Training if, and only if, the price is right.

 

[Uncle Fester]

The easy answer is: they would if they could, but operating costs are too high.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Old R.O.]

Thread Revival time....

News release from NAS Fallon this week.

Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center dedicates Ault Auditorium

Story and Photo by Chief Mass Communication Specialist Christopher Shimana, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center Public Affairs.​

FALLON, Nev. ( June 12, 2009) - The Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) officially dedicated the Ault auditorium during a ceremony held in the Fleet Training building on board Naval Air Station Fallon, June 12 to honor the man responsible for the U.S. Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor (SFTI) program, commonly known as TOPGUN. The dedication was attended by more than 100 guests including members of the Ault family and two of TOPGUN’s founding instructors.

The 1,677 square-foot Ault auditorium bears the name of Capt. Frank “Whip” Ault” in honor of his significant contributions in improving military air-to-air combat performance during the early years of the Vietnam War. In 1967, the Chief of Naval Operations selected Ault to conduct an air weapons study. Ault’s experience as an aircraft carrier commanding officer on board USS Coral Sea (CVA-43), naval aviator and weapons specialist led the “Ault report” in 1968.

The Ault report was a sweeping review of fighter system performance covering logistics, training and operations and is credited with raising the air combat kill ratio from 2.1 to more than 12.1. As a result, the Navy established a graduate level school designed to train fleet fighter pilots in combat tactics and commissioned TOP GUN as a command in 1972.


"The Ault report took the whole training continuum, the hardware, the training piece and what we needed to do to get better and be successful in combat” said Rear Adm. Emerson “that report is alive and well and is required reading for TOPGUN instructors, his memory will never go away because of that.”

"The Ault auditorium will be used for tactical instruction at TOPGUN, Carrier Airborne Early Warning Weapons and the Seahawk Weapons and Tactics Instructor Weapons schools at NSWAC. Each school teaches the instructors that teach the fleet tactics.” said TOPGUN Commander Cmdr. Dan “Undra” Cheever. “The legacy of Capt. Ault is captured by naming a tactical training auditorium after him.”

In addition to supporting tactical instruction, the Ault auditorium serves as venue supporting communication. “It will introduce civilians and military alike to TOPGUN and what goes on at NSAWC.” said Cheever. “Every year we conduct a re-blue which is a conference of tactical aviators where the truth of the weapons systems and tactics is discussed. There is no more fitting place to have Capt. Ault's name than a place where tactical excellence and the truth prevail. “

Cmdr. Jon “Litnin” Ault (retired) was accompanied to the dedication by his brothers Jan, Jerry and his granddaughter Caroline. “My dad was involved in many pioneering and groundbreaking aspects of the United States Navy” said Jon “He was a bomb commander of the Navy’s1st nuclear delivery squadron after World War II, he wrote the Navy’s 1st space program in 1957, which one of the results you see daily is it gave us GPS, but he was never prouder of anything he did in the Navy than the establishment of TOPGUN and the results that it achieved.”

Following the dedication, a graduation ceremony for TOPGUN class 03-09 was held marking the 216th class graduation since TOPGUN’s inception. In his remarks to the graduates, Rear Adm. Emerson said “you need to maintain the high level of standards that TOPGUN set 40yrs ago when this institution was stood up, that is your charter.”

“To this day we study his lessons learned to make sure that we are continuing to ask the hard questions and identify areas that need attention “said Cheever. “Ault's contributions in air-to-air combat will always be relevant.”

NSAWC is the consolidation of Naval Strike Warfare Center (Strike “U”), TOPGUN and Carrier Airborne Early Warning Weapons School (TOPDOME) into a single command. The Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center is the center of excellence for naval training and tactics development and provides service to aircrews, squadrons and air wings throughout the United States Navy through flight training, academic instructional classes and direct operational and intelligence support.

FALLON,Nevada (June 12, 2009) Cmdr.(Ret) Jon “Litnin” Ault (Left) and Commander, Naval Strike and Air Warfare Canter (NSAWC) Rear Adm. Mark Emerson pose with a copy of the Ault report of 1968 in the Fleet training building on board Naval Air Station Fallon June 12. During the early years of the Vietnam War, the Chief of Naval Operations directed Ault’s father, Capt. Frank “Whip” Ault to conduct a sweeping review of fighter system performance covering logistics, training and operations chain. The results was the Ault report of 1968, which led to the establishment of a graduate level school designed to train fleet fighter pilots in combat tactics led to the commission of TOP GUN in 1972. The Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center is the Navy's center of excellence for naval aviation training and tactics development.
(U.S. Navy photo by Chief Mass Communication Specialist Christopher Shimana/RELEASED

 

[Owen]

I find myself wondering if we are going to have to relearn some
of those lessons, My understanding is the the naval F-35 will
have no internal gun, but will employ a bolt on pod when needed.

 

[Catmando]

I find myself wondering if we are going to have to relearn some
of those lessons, My understanding is the the naval F-35 will
have no internal gun, but will employ a bolt on pod when needed.

"F-4 veteran and former Topgun instructor John Nash explained to the authors that the failure to include and internal gun was 'a tragic mistake';... the Navy bought the Mk 4 (GAU-4) gun pod, which was "worthless", and that is an understatement." Excerpt from US Navy F-4 Phantom II Mig Killers.​

Gun pods take up space where external fuel tanks or ordnance needs to be. And out of a number of times I carried and fired the infamous Mk4 gun pod, I got a grand total of 3 total rounds out because of jamming. POS Pod.

Talked to a guy today at a friend's wedding who told how the F-14's gun in one particular instance he knew saved a bunch of guys on the ground in extremis in Iraq on a pop-up, unplanned and off the wall mission upon an RTB.

 

[Pags]

How we were... (F-8s vs F-4s)

Stolen from Neptunus Lex's:

by Dick Nelson

There were two types of fighters at Miramar in 1966?F-8 Crusaders and F-4 Phantoms. The two communities could not have been more different. The F-8 had been developed and refined as an air superiority fighter. For close aerial combat over Vietnam, its AIM-9D Sidewinder heat-seeking missiles allowed the pilot to point and shoot, while keeping his head on a swivel. If the dog-fight became close combat, inside the minimum Sidewinder range, the F-8 could use its four 20mm cannon on the MIG.

?Pirate? Nichols, an experienced driver in the Red Lightnings? sister squadron (VF-191), had the only MIG engagement in CAG-19, and dispatched a MIG-17 with his guns after wounding the bogey with a Sidewinder shot.

The Navy F-4, on the other hand, was procured according to specifications of pointy-heads in the Pentagon to be a pure Fleet interceptor, using missiles only. It had no guns. It had two engines that left highly visible smoke trails, and a Radar Intercept Officer (RIO) in the back seat to run the radar. In Vietnam, this meant that it could not be as effective as the F-8 in close-range dog-fighting. In spite of these problems, LT ?Duke? Cunningham and his back-seater, Willie Driscoll, scored five MIG kills while flying an F-4 to become the only Navy ?aces? (5 or more kills) of the Vietnam War.

The differences in design of these aircraft caused their pilots to be trained and think differently. In one incident, an F-4 pilot accidentally shot down his wingman with a missile, mistaking him for a MIG. The F-4s incurred so many losses by the MIGs that the Navy created ?Top Gun? (ed: TOPGUN) to address these deficiencies. Having a crew member in the back seat also tended to overly ?civilize? the flying of many F-4 pilots, while the F-8 pilot only had to worry about himself and could fly his aircraft with wild abandon. Meanwhile, the F-8 amassed the highest overall kill ratio against the MIGs. The essential difference between the two fighter communities was that the F-8 pilots were trained as airborne predators, while the F-4 crews largely viewed themselves as Fleet interceptor pilots.

True to form, the Red Lightnings delighted in making the F-4 crews feel inadequate by mercilessly hunting them on almost every flight. The area west of San Diego, between San Clemente Island and the coast, became ?MIG alley,? infested with bogeys waiting to jump the unwary driver. While the Navy hierarchy had strict policies against ?unauthorized ACM? (Air Combat Maneuvering ?aka: dog fighting), they knew very well what was going on offshore, and wisely looked the other way. The admirals felt it was better for the pilots to get embarrassed around San Diego than killed by a MIG in Vietnam. So far, no aircraft accidents had been attributed to the ?unauthorized? ACM, so it continued. Commodore ?Swede? Vejtasa, Commander Fleet Air Miramar, was a double ?ace? from WWII, and the recipient of three Navy Crosses, the Legion of Merit, and the Bronze Star. He understood the need for this realistic training and quietly condoned it. (ed. Must?ve been good to have vets like that in charge.)

The Red Lightnings took this wild-West practice to a new level, as usual. Every Friday, they would notify all Miramar ready rooms that they would be waiting for all challengers over the water near the 270 deg. radial from Miramar at 40 miles, which became known as ?the OK Corral.? At 1400, the area went ?hot,? and a giant ?fur ball? of turning, twisting fighters would develop. It was not uncommon to see 30 or more aircraft in a single battle. When the F-4 pilots showed up, they would try to simulate the use of their Sparrow head-on radar missiles, quite useless in a ?fur ball.? This usually resulted in the Red Lightnings pouncing on the F-4s as they decelerated and tried unsuccessfully to turn with the F-8s. Using gun cameras, the Red Lightnings acquired a huge inventory of documented F-4 ?shoot downs.? On one occasion, I played about fifty of these film clips at Friday Happy Hour at the O?Club, resulting in a near riot and lots of broken glass.

There was also vicious competition among the Miramar F-8 squadrons. Commodore Vejtasa issued an annual award to the best F-8 squadron at Miramar. With this award came a coveted trophy, known as ?The Mutha? Trophy. It was a glass-encased Japanese animal figure, Tanuki, with a hideous face and eyes that constantly flashed. At her side, a baby sported an oversized set of testicles.

The Red Lightnings typically won this trophy each year, which became a source of intense envy and aggravation among the other F-8 squadrons. Finally, pilots from one of the other squadrons broke into the Red Lightnings? ready room one night and stole ?The Mutha? Trophy. The Skipper immediately ordered a counter-strike to rescue ?Mutha? from the evil-doers.

On a Saturday afternoon, Buzzard, Gator and I executed a forced-entry into the offending squadron?s spaces, and after forcibly subduing the watch officer, left with ?Mutha?. She was returned to her proper shrine in our ready room, and was locked in a large safe. She seemed happy to be home. Gator got a bloody nose, but the mission was a success. Sometimes you have to take casualties. (ed. The trophy still exists and is the subject of much friendly competition and outright larceny.)

One morning, Maggot told me that he was taking me on a sight-seeing tour of the Grand Canyon. We manned our aircraft and flew east to the Tuba City area, and started a run inside the canyon, heading back toward Las Vegas and Hoover Dam. The canyon became so narrow that Maggot had me fly directly behind him about 200? in ?trail? so that I could instantly match his turns. Soon the breathtaking canyon walls loomed high above us on either side as we zoomed along at 350 kts. It was great fun?until Maggot took a wrong turn, and flew up a box canyon. Suddenly the canyon stopped, and a vertical wall was directly ahead. ?Burner now!? he yelled and pulled straight up. I thought, ?what a lousy way to die.?

The F-8?s power saved us. We barely made the top of the canyon wall, and rolled inverted to float the nose over the rim, nibbling on a stall. Still in after-burner, we staggered over some horses and campers at the canyon rim as we struggled to keep the birds flying. It must have been exciting for the civilian sightseers. After we recovered, Maggot dove right back down into the main canyon again, determined to reach Hoover Dam. As we climbed out over the dam, I realized my fuel was dangerously low. We arrived at Miramar and my bird had about five minutes of fuel remaining. When I complained to Maggot, he replied, ?No sweat. Fuel left after a flight is wasted. By the way, did you see the cables?? It seems that there were about 26 large power cables suspended from rim to rim of the canyon in various locations. I never saw them, because we were flying below them.

It was now time for a change of squadron command. Bob Chew (?48) handed the con over to his outstanding XO, Bill Conklin. Conklin was another superlative aviator, with heavy Korean War experience. He also was a wonderful officer and leader. He had flown with the Royal Navy flight demonstration team on an exchange tour, and loved formation aerobatics. There was only one problem with this handsome dude?he was 40 years old, and his eyes were bad. He had been secretly wearing glasses when he flew.

The squadron became concerned about his distance vision, and decided (without his knowledge) that he needed a ?seeing-eye dog.? A confidential survey was taken to determine who had the best eyes. Unfortunately, that was me, which made me the new Skipper?s permanent wingman. This was an honor I did not really want, because this guy felt it was his duty to always be on the most dangerous mission. No guts, no glory.

His pet project was the squadron ?air show? team. Leading a four-plane diamond, he put Buzzard on his left wing, me on his right wing, and Maggot in the slot. On one occasion, the Skipper led a very low barrel roll over the carrier ?to boost the troops? morale? and bottomed out with poor Maggot skimming the waves and screaming on his radio. His reply to Maggot was ?Make sure your tail is black from my exhaust, or you are obviously not in position.? Wow!

The squadron deployed to MCAS Yuma for its weapons training during that summer. I had become friends with Porky and Buzzard, both of whom were great pilots and would have been good candidates for Pappy Boyington?s Black Sheep Squadron. They were incorrigible products of the old Naval Aviation Cadet program, and neither Chew nor Conklin found it worth the effort to reform them. Besides, they produced ?the numbers? when flying, and in the Red Lightning squadron, that was all that mattered. For these two, every day was a new opportunity, as Buzzard would say, ?to be VSH [Very $hit Hot].? Two of Buzzard?s favorite quotes were ?Better to bust your ass than look bad around the ship,? and ?I have never made an approach so bad that I couldn?t salvage it.? And Buzzard was our squadron LSO!

Across the Arizona border from Yuma was a small California town, Winterhaven. It sported some sleazy bars and shady characters that liked to take advantage of the enlisted servicemen from MCAS Yuma. Buzzard and Porky learned that some Sailors and Marines had been beaten up by locals at one particular bar, and vowed to administer some pay-back.

One night, with me in tow, they crossed into Winterhaven and located the bar. After shutting down the bar?s electrical power, they tossed some orange smoke flares into the dark bar, causing the burly patrons to vacate the bar in a panic. As we escaped back to the base, Buzzard remarked, ?Another successful mission. VSH!? Such was life in the Red Lightnings.

Porky was not only a great pilot, he was an engineering genius. One of his creations was an analog carrier launch-weight computer, which he built out of spare parts from our avionics shop. During cruise, it was used by the ready room Duty Officer to derive each aircraft?s launch weight for the catapult settings, including any combination of ordnance or fuel. He offered its design to the Navy, but it was rejected as ?unnecessary.? The squadron used it anyway.

As we prepared to go on deployment to Vietnam, the staterooms were assigned by the Air Wing, with Porky and Buzzard as roommates. They traveled to North Island whereTiconderoga was docked and looked at their assigned room with disapproval. It needed major upgrading.

Porky loaded up his tools, and he and Buzzard visited the San Diego naval base, where they found an old cruiser being readied for the mothball fleet. Wearing hardhats and posing as ?sand crabs? [civilian workers], they went aboard and checked out the cruiser?s Flag spaces. The admiral?s cabin had a beautiful teakwood door in immaculate condition. Porky dismantled it, and they took it back to North Island and installed it on their new stateroom. He then added matching wood paneling to the bulkheads, floor tile, and a marble vanity in place of the prison-like metal wash basin. They installed stereo speakers, along with recessed lighting and a built-in refrigerator. It was a cabin fit for a VIP. But it still lacked one thing ? air conditioning. These old ships only had minimal air conditioning, and you had to be senior to get this amenity.

Porky bought a window-style air conditioner at Sears, and installed it. He tapped into a fuse box for power, and with some of the ship?s ducting, vented the hot air into the junior officer bunkroom down the passageway that was inhabited by a group of ship?s officers (?Black Shoes?). It must have been very hot in there, but the poor Black Shoes never caught on.

Porky had a girlfriend in Chula Vista, with whom he had a constantly stormy relationship. She had strayed off the reservation, and was seeing a helicopter pilot from North Island, a double insult. Porky learned that the helo driver was going to do a low fly-over at the woman?s house to impress her. With blood in his eyes, Porky talked the maintenance Chief into giving him an F-8 after lunch, and blasted off on a search-and-destroy mission. After orbiting over south San Diego Bay for a few minutes, he spotted a Navy SH-3 helo crossing the Bay from North Island. He circled overhead, and watched as the ungainly craft headed for Chula Vista.

Porky had made illegal low passes over the woman?s house before, and knew its exact location. As expected, the SH-3 began to hover over her house at about 200?. Porky added power and circled toward this interloper. Coming from behind the helo at about 400 kts, he dove to 100? and rolled inverted, flying between the girl friend?s roof and the stationary helo. As he passed the helo, he hit afterburner and rolled upright, climbing vertically. The helo pilots nearly lost control of their machine, and terrified, headed at maximum speed back to North Island. The girlfriend, standing in her front yard, was so impressed that she dumped the helo pilot and reunited with Porky. Love conquers all.

 

[Cron]

Ah, I read this on there yesterday and was going to post it, but never got around to it. It's just another one of those pieces of writing that make me wish I was born a few decades earlier.

 

[Rocketman]

Check this out. Great example of a Navy tradition carried on. (at least as late as 2006)

Too bad there is no sound on the vid

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16496

 

[SynixMan]

The Flag's teak door...classic...