Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[Lobster]

Jesus, a chip on the other shoulder and you could be a well balanced individual

And since you ask, yes I'm in the UK at the moment cos my wife's British, thats why I think your attitude stinks.

Sounds like a bunch of personal problems to me...

....and why didn't you buy american????

 

[swerdna]

Fair point, well made !

All I'm trying to say is that one minor paper in the UK may or may not have printed misleading or incorrect info on an icon of the US military and everybobdy gets their knickers in a twist. Whereas the Brits have been putting up with a distorted view of history from the US for years and nobody over here gives a damn.

I distinctly remember that we gave the Brits their share of credit when we made a movie about how we saved the world.

Distorted view of history my ass.

 

[Mumbles]

Here's a pretty good retort to the same article that I received in an email chain....

Rowland White?s interpretation of history is disingenuous, erroneous and certainly self promotional. All of the Royal Navy exchange pilots at that time (Dick Lord, Dick Moody and Peter Jago) were excellent pilots. What we learned from them was how to play mess Rugby in our whites, how to pass out in your plate at a Dining In and how to leave your breakfast on the ramp and still make your take-off time. They did make a positive contribution to the development of skill sets and tactical training within the training squadron to which we were all assigned. Many of them remain friends today. Peter lives near San Diego and flies eastern bloc aircraft long with us doing many of the same things we did in our youth. To assert that ?they taught us how to fly the F-4 or that they wrote the NFWS syllabus is a complete fabrication.



It was widely understood by our pilots (USN and USAF) that we had trained for a different threat and were flying a very versatile and capable aircraft that was designed to establish air superiority in a different environment than the one we found ourselves engaged in. To further compound the problems, our command and control limitations negated our primary advantage, the ability to kill at long range. U.S. forces were routinely required to make a V.I.D. which put us in a turning fight with weapons not ideally suited for close in high ?G? high T.C.A. combat. To make it even worse, the Rules of Engagement shifted the initiative to our adversaries. They exploited those R.O.E. Shame on the planners who don?t have to do the fighting. ?Fight to Win? anything else is rubbish.



It was the Ault Report that gave voice to the operational forces (Fighter Pilots recently back from combat). The Ault Report cataloged all of the problems facing our forces. The easiest to fix in a short period of time was aircrew training and tactics. Missile performance was next in the line-up and we saw the results before the end of the conflict. Unlike the U.S.A.F. which was ruled by the bomber generals of S.A.C., the U.S. Navy command structure responded appropriately. They told those who experienced the problems and who complained about the situation to ?go fix it?.



We studied prior conflicts and all of the prior F-4 vs MIG engagements. Adapting the two aircraft tactical unit, the Rotte/Section/Element established by Werner Molders (Luftwaffe) to the performance capabilities of our aircraft, we developed Loose Deuce maneuvering which emphasized mutual support. Taking advantage of the weapons system capability we developed offensive combat spread techniques and V.I.D tactics to maintain the offensive advantage at the terminal phase of an intercept.



We studied Maj John Boyd?s (U.S.A.F.) theory of energy maneuverability in order to understand relative aircraft performance envelopes and the comparative advantages/disadvantages of the F-4 vs our adversaries. We had the added advantage of being able to fly against captured assets. We were able to fly against the adversary aircraft in the western desert. The learning curve was very steep and resulted in dramatically revised tactics and training. We learned to use the vertical and the lag roll and other maneuvers to exploit our relative advantages. All of this was incorporated into the NFWS syllabus.



This took place against the backdrop of the bombing halt ordered by President Johnson in November of 1968. For the next three years any aerial confrontation was very limited. President Nixon lifted the ban north of the 20th parallel. By this time numerous NFWS trained pilots were assigned to Fighter Squadrons in the theater of operations. When aerial combat resumed, the results were dramatic. All of the U.S. Navy kills except for two were made by NFWS ?TOPGUN? graduates. This is now a part of aviation history, legend and lore?..U.S. Naval Aviation history I might add. He who says otherwise was not there and diminishes himself by trying to assume the credit for the accomplishments of others.



R. Darrell Gary

?Condor?

 

[Catmando]

Darrel Gary knows well of what he speaks. He was a well-respected instructor there at the time in question. He would know the circumstances as well as anyone.

His retort is both very accurate and very informative. It should put to bed the outrageous claim that the British instituted Top Gun - a bogus claim I believe was made purely for the PR to increase sales of a forthcoming book.

 

[Uncle Fester]

His retort is both very accurate and very informative. It should put to bed the outrageous claim that the British instituted Top Gun - a bogus claim I believe was made purely for the PR to increase sales of a forthcoming book.

You, sir, are obviously part of the Yank Conspiracy!

This seems to be part of a weird "ours is better, larger and hangs lower than those filthy Americans" trend I've noticed lately in the British. Conspiracy theories and inferiority complexes don't wear well on our cousins across the water. The Brits I've worked with are very professional and know their shit, but the "pfft, well I guess that's how you do things" *roll eyes* thing gets old after a while.

 

[bunk22]

One of the civilian instructors I work with goes to some website like ours but a British version. Claims they are very cocky, big ego's.....even bigger tan A4's!! A British guy on CF made a claim that American pilots were afraid to come down and tangle with them at their level...down low. He was a former F-4 and Tornado driver.

 

[scoolbubba]

But we're better than them...silly limeys

 

[Uncle Fester]

A British guy on CF made a claim that American pilots were afraid to come down and tangle with them at their level...down low.

Talk about ironic; the Brits claiming that we arrogant Yanks won't learn from them, yet they insist on going in low, even up to OIF Phase I. Though we've learned the hard way that you have a better chance up high tangling with Mr SAM than down low against every hajji with a rifle.

But whatever. They gave us Keira Knightley. I'd call it even.

 

[bunk22]

Talk about ironic; the Brits claiming that we arrogant Yanks won't learn from them, yet they insist on going in low, even up to OIF Phase I. Though we've learned the hard way that you have a better chance up high tangling with Mr SAM than down low against every hajji with a rifle.

But whatever. They gave us Keira Knightley. I'd call it even.

Meh, she lacks two very important assets. Something that another European country and ally has provided:

 

[Mumbles]

Talk about ironic; the Brits claiming that we arrogant Yanks won't learn from them, yet they insist on going in low, even up to OIF Phase I. Though we've learned the hard way that you have a better chance up high tangling with Mr SAM than down low against every hajji with a rifle.

But whatever. They gave us Keira Knightley. I'd call it even.

The Brits have also given the world this!

 

[rondebmar]

Here's a "hijack" of epic proportions...but should be of interest to the aviation community.

Upon reading Mumble's (the OP's) post, I flashed back to an event very akin to his Dad's account...and perhaps actually the original event, with some embellishment...I can attest to the veracity, because I was there!!

Same general set-up...early sixties, Med, SPAD squadron...no further details until I hear from the party involved! I've invited him by email to view this thread!

Friend & squadron mate suffered a gastro-intestinal casualty of massive proportions during a long hop...utilized his bag full of WAC's & Sectionals as a receptacle...which he then carefully folded, and attempted to "jettison" out the starboard side...which in turn resulted in a rather long, outstandingly visible, brown streak down the right side of his fuselage...observed by all who watched his trapping aboard...and then by a long parade of viewers who made the trip up to the flight deck!!

Because Mumbles cites his Dad, and Spads...I PM'ed him, requesting he tell me his Dad's name...maybe we knew each other?? With Mumbles consent. here's his reply:

well Sir,
Dad was a VF type in the 70s and 80's...
but my Grandad whose been deceased for a few years was a SPAD Skipper in the 1950s, (VA-216 I believe), and CAG on the Shangri-La in the Med in early 60's. His name was Frank Ault.
R/
Mumbles

OK, I certainly did not know his Dad, being he was a decade younger than I am...and, to boot, was a member of the "Fighter Puke" community...with whom us "Attack" types did not associate, socially or professionally!!

However, the name of his Granddad...Frank Ault...was, for some reason, vaguely familiar. So, "Goggling" it up, I found this:

Ault

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Captain Frank Ault, USN (Ret) (1922 – August 25, 2006) was a United States Naval officer. He is best remembered for the classified study he led in 1968 that led to the creation of the Navy Fighter Weapons School, or TOP GUN. Disturbed over less than expected performance of Navy fighters against the North Vietnamese MIGs in the first stage of the Vietnam Conflict 1965-1968 in which the exchange ratio was at best 2.5:1, Ault was directed by Adm. Tom Moorer, the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) to conduct a sweeping review of aircraft, aircrew, organizational, training and missile performance and make recommendations for improvements. The official title of the report was Air-to-Air Missile System Capability Review, but it quickly became known simply as the Ault Report[1].

Probably very familiar to the VF community of that time...we VA guys were also somewhat aware of the controversy in tactics!

Additionally, Frank Ault was Shang's CAG...and Shang was often our "sister" carrier in the Med during that time frame...and also CO of Coral Sea, '66-'67. Wife & I were "Guests of Honor" at a Coral Sea "Change of Command" ceremony at Pearl once in mid '70's...will relate details in this "Humor" forum sometime in the future.

 

[Mumbles]

American Flankers...

Pretty neat. Not so long ago any mention of Russian jets flying out in the desert hinterlands was verboten!

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...79a7Post:36be72c4-1223-493f-bc10-073b0f15112e

 

[Uncle Fester]

Wow...open source, flown by civvies, delivered in an An-124, no less!

Times have indeed changed.

I'll ask the obvious question: why doesn't NSAWC just buy a few of these?

 

[MIDNJAC]

How cool is that? Awesome...thanks for the link!

 

[BarrettRC8]

Very cool Mumbles. I must admit, the Flanker is an absolutely beautiful aircraft. Its always been one of my favorites.