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Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects
- Thread starter futrMarineBlueAngel
- Start date
If "everyone" thought that, then they, especially those in senior positions, were negligent in their duties in not getting him off flight status before it happened. You can care or not care that the guy died, but he took an expensive jet with him. Given the right circumstances, him could've taken another flyer or person on the ground with him.
Something like this guy did.
The classic case study is the "cowboy" B-52 pilot who pushed the envelope so much that others starting refusing to fly with him. Even putting seniors in the cockpit didn't stem his antics, it simply got them killed along with the pilot who inevitably tried a stunt that exceeded the aircraft's performance envelope and his ability to recover (with tragic results).
It's a fascinating case study and ends with "everyone" saying they knew" it was just a matter of time". I believe it's been posted here before. I'll see if I can find it.
I can't believe they didn't at least take the guy off the airshow/demo circuit. I'm no expert on the B-52 -1, but I'd be willing to bet that he was operating dangerously close to or outside of the limitations of his aircraft on many of these clips....kind of ties into what A4's was saying. Just because you have a chip on your shoulder that you didn't get pointy nose jets, is no excuse to fly a big wing bomber like one. I know there are lots of guys out there (and here) who's days of yanking and banking in Phantoms, Tomcats, Hornets etc are over, yet they don't go out and beat up their FedEx MD-11's or Delta 757's when they aren't on revenue flights. Just because Tex Johnson rolled a 707 doesn't excuse it either IMHO.
Sure -- that goes w/out saying ... but when I knew him, I was a STUD. NAVAIR STUDs didn't dime out their Instructors, at least not back then. He was teachin' RI and I had to suffer through a couple of his ground school briefs ... real 'snoozers' except when he got 'excited' and started talkin' about 'BENDING BIRDS'. His contemporaries would roll their eyes at his on duty and off duty antics , frequently ... but I guess no one 'did anything'. That was the way it was ... in the military AND the airlines.
When I 'became of age' and was in a position to 'do something' about it -- I did, on more than one occasion. Military and civilian ... and that's the 'way' that was ...
TEX was da' MAN ... he rolled the -80 over Lake Washington for the Gold Cup Races in 1955 ... his first name was "Alvin' ... which is probably why he liked 'TEX' mo' bettah' (although he was from Kansas, Dorothy, and got his moniker 'cause he wore Cowboy hats ** gasp ** ON THE RAMP!!!) ... and he probably did more to 'sell' the -07 than any other single individual ... after his rug dance w/ Boeing President Bill Allen, he just had to promise not to 'do it' again ...
I don't think this vids been posted, shows Tex rolling the 707.
Read the CRM case study Pugs posted. We've all heard the story, but the case study really shows the (pardon the phrase) systemic failure all the way up thru the chain of command, several times over. The maneuvers HE BRIEFED to the WING CO were outside the associated limits of the Buff. That'd be like me going up to CPRW-11 and getting the ok for a high G pullup on a departure in the warpig...AND HIM SIGNING OFF ON IT! The guy was never shitcanned...in fact, he was the Stan/Eval-O (think Natops instructor). During the airshow practice, he had the Sqn CO as his co pilot, and I believe the wing DO (on his last flight) as a safety observer. 2 Light Colonels and a Bird + the dumbass who killed them, and NO ONE on the plane said 'knock that shit off or you're done."
The maneuver that killed them was supposed to be a go around to a VFR pattern. He flew it at 250 feet, rolled past 90 for some kind of a Sierra Hotel go around and killed everyone.
There's a reason this case/the tenerife mishap are constantly referred to in the CRM class. They are the most obvious, blatant, "how the fuck could this have possibly gone down"s that any rahtard with half a brain can comprehend.
I hadn't realized Tex Johnston was part of the space program later on.....interesting to hear. Too bad nothing ever came of the Dyna-soar; I'm sure that left a lot of talented folks looking for other work.
Bubba, yeah I totally agree, it is beyond comprehension. I was just speaking towards the mindset the guy must have had in order to even suggest said maneuvers to his CoC. Still, their complicity in it defies all logic, and certainly must have taken away any hesitation any normal pilot would have had to do these things in the first place.
Bubba, yeah I totally agree, it is beyond comprehension. I was just speaking towards the mindset the guy must have had in order to even suggest said maneuvers to his CoC. Still, their complicity in it defies all logic, and certainly must have taken away any hesitation any normal pilot would have had to do these things in the first place.
Agreed, to even think of doing that flying that low and slow at an air show. He had the B52 @ 90° to the ground. The aircraft just didn't have the power or lift to stay in the air.
And clearly he misunderstood the aerodynamic differences between aileron and spoileron equipped aircraft, and the dangers of the latter at slow speed
Do you REALLY THINK that he thought this stuff out ... ???
He was an idiot. He was a plumber. He's dead.
The pity is, he took some 'better men' w/ him ...
