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Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Hey...maybe one of you more savy guys can address this. It seems to me that as far as pure air to air combat goes, that airborne radar and battelzone management (AWACS, E2 etc....) would have a far bigger transformational effect on big picture air combat than BVR weapons. Anyone?
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
The widom of the internet forums seem to espouse that because missiles are so deadly and self-guiding pilots have it much easier than the gunfighters of old. That could not be farther from the truth.

Much easier? I don't think that 'widom':icon_mi_1 was ever implied. Warfare is never "easy", be it with rock and sling, broadsword, cannon or the latest high-tech weapons…it's never even remotely, "easy." But it can definitely be different, depending upon many factors.

The earlier point was made that, for those who have had the experience, a guns kill was more satisfying for them than a missile kill, because it relied a little less on technology and a little more on their basic flying skills – (even with lead-computing gun sights). Also, because the guns envelope was so small, flying to it was perhaps more difficult and thus more satisfying. (Same with Air-to-Ground: A Zero CEP with an old iron bombsight is much more difficult and thus more personally gratifying than the same CEP with a computerized ballistic drop, which is in turn more satisfying than an LGB or smart-weapon drop….Note, not better or desired, just more personally satisfying because it depends more upon "personal" skill. Most will enjoy the added challenge if it's available, and warranted - just like hands-on landings vs. auto-land.)

Also, we have so much more information to process in much less time than they ever did. Some will say our radars and the like make it easy for us now days. That again is a misconception. We almost have sensory overload these days, sensors can lie, and they can distract you. Running the radar properly can be a lot tougher than many people think. It's not like an X-box game.

"Sensory overload" is an entirely different subject than weapons employment. And I'm not sure who the "they" were, to whom you refer. Earlier, and less advanced radars and sensors produced similar problems for the operator. Further, Fallon and Red Flag are an excellent exercises, but they still can't quite duplicate the real thing, or provide quite the same, "sensory overload," irrespective of technology.

Back in the day of 30 plane Alpha Strikes, it was not uncommon to have - and overwhelmingly, all at once – smoke trails above you from friendly Shrikes; aimed and barrage fire AAA tracers zinging through the formation, detonating above/below/around you; 30 unstable and jinking aircraft that you tried hard not to mid-air with; "Deep Sea" on Guard constantly yelling in your headsets loudly, "SAM, SAM, vicinity of ___"; Red Crown or the E-2 sometimes calling multiple "Bandits" in various sectors; chaff and bright flares being punched out by various aircraft just ahead, and whizzing right by you (along with the enemy tracers); "trying to tune and re-tune temperamental missiles; a confusing array of switchology to set up just right for bombs and missiles; sudden 30-plane formation discipline disintegration, as a couple of SAM's go right through the formation; 30 plane's struggling to rejoin; trying to get set up for the strike and finding it weathered in; having to go to your alternate target; along with more loud SAM calls on Guard, and Bandit Calls, now you start hearing the "Beeper on Guard" as one of your 30 has just been shot down; who was it?; looking at your RHAW indications and seeing AAA from all quadrants, and SAM's from two quadrants; having to listen to the multiple and repeated – and extremely loud - cockpit aural warnings of SAM launches and flashing red lights; start hearing SAR efforts on Guard; listening to unnecessary chatter on the Strike Frequency, listening to flights aborting for various mechanical reasons, listening to someone who lost the strike group, and all this before even reaching the target, taking a vector, or firing one missile.

There were occasions where there were so many flashing and solid enemy strobes from all directions, and constant and repeated, loud aural warning tones and warbles of many multiple SAM launches or even SAM guidance, we just turned off the RHAW gear so we didn't have to listen to those loud and many threats, which only added to the cacophony. Not smart maybe, but a definite example and honest result of what you term, "sensory overload."

And the threshold for sensory overload is very much lowered on the 10th month of a cruise, after you stood an alert-5 in the middle of the night, have a touch of the flu, spent part of the night planning, and did a similar mission the day before.

No generation of warriors has a monopoly on sensory overload - neither today's, tomorrow's, nor yesterday's. While I have indeed experienced sensory overload in the "real world", I suspect it may have been even greater for the WWII guys, even if their technological tools were far less. Until you have been shot at in anger, you haven't experienced real sensory overload either.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
.....It seems to me that as far as pure air to air combat goes, that airborne radar and battelzone management (AWACS, E2 etc....) would have a far bigger transformational effect on big picture air combat than BVR weapons. Anyone?
Air-to-air "battlefield management" :) ... "transformational effect" :)... "big picture air combat" :) ... I love it .... *sigh* the "modern" techno-transforming (to what?) Navy ....

I have no idea what you just said ....
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
.....Back in the day of 30 plane Alpha Strikes....
Jeez, CAT ... I was sweating just reading your post. "TURN OFF THAT DAMN WARBLE !!!" ... I may have to burn my shorts, t-shirt, ball cap, and flip-flops if I read it again. :eek:

CAT, remember when the "experts" said that an integral gun would no longer be required in air-to-air combat??? '50s?? '60s?? The more things change .... :)

And sensory overload? You mean with "sensors"?? You Nugget Veterans: try sensing a 25 plane "furball" some fine day @ a Red Flag in the bright, sunny Nevada skies ... that's 25 planes, all ACM'in in a 3-6 mile diameter circle .... just tryin' to stay alive in a TRAINING evolution such as this taxes the senses .... now THAT'S SENSORY .... :) ... and you don't even have to get shot at to do it.

Just fly or die ...

 

JIMMY

Registered User
wow great post Catmando. that was very enjoyable to read:). I felt like I could really visualize all that going on in the cockpit during one of your missions. (sensory overload). I'd give you more rep... but looks like its down for the time beind;).

-jP
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Air-to-air "battlefield management" :) ... "transformational effect" :)... "big picture air combat" :) ... I love it .... *sigh* the "modern" techno-transforming (to what?) Navy ....

I have no idea what you just said ....

Gimme a break man...it was half of my major...(Science & Technology studies....). Let me break it down...

I think AWACS made fighting airplanes more different than big missles. Do you agree...:D

Hugs and kisses...:icon_wink
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
:D Yeah...that's most people's first reaction....It's a department that talks about the influence social structures (companies, military etc...) have on technological development and implementation. For example...Why does the US use the military as a sort of incubator for new technology? Most new technology comes from the military and then goes to the private sector.(Think DARPA) This is backwards from most of the rest of the world.

Here's the link if you are really interested.
http://www.sts.cornell.edu/programug.php

If you weren't really interested...:icon_razz


"Hindsight is not wisdom, and second guessing is not a strategy."--President G.W. Bush, January 31, 2006
Just noticed that....very nice.
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
:D Yeah...that's most people's first reaction....It's a department that talks about the influence social structures (companies, military etc...) have on technological development and implementation. For example...Why does the US use the military as a sort of incubator for new technology? Most new technology comes from the military and then goes to the private sector.(Think DARPA) This is backwards from most of the rest of the world.
Sounds like getting academic credit for watching From Tactical to Practical on the Military Channel. If that's the case, I too should have a BS in Science and Technology Studies.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
:D Pretty much...they offer advanced degrees too...You gotta have the Discovery Channel for that though.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor

[slight course correction]

Yeah ... THAT's WHAT's LACKING !!! Military VISION !!! :eek: What WAS I thinking , anyway .... ???!!!

Methinks that's one of our military problems of the day ... too much reliance on technology, management, administration, and, or course --- "vision" .... :) ... maybe that's the greatest problem in today's U.S. military.

I think these things and the attendant beltway hangers-on who promote and advertise them to a largely gullible, self-promoting, career-oriented upper/middle military "management team" do a disservice and in fact, actually dilute the effort to strengthen the military.

Who do you suppose is going door-to-door in Baghdad today? It ain't the Avon Lady ... nor technicians, managers, administrator, "visioners", and most certainly ... not the beltway bandits. It's dog-faces and jarheads with M4 carbines ....

Suggested reading for you:

"On War", Clausewitz
"Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong", Mao Zedong

Nothing about technology, management, administration, or "visioning" in those two timeless collections about warfare. Just truths ... on how to fight and win ....

[/slight course correction]
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Two other particularly applicable ones....

The Soldier and the State: the theory and politics of civil-military relations. Samuel P. Huntington

How Democracies Perish. Jean Francois Revel.


Sort of more modern sequels of A4's reccomendations. Just finished Huntington again. Also famous for a little article called The Clash of Civilizations that I highly reccomend. Find it here.

http://www.alamut.com/subj/economics/misc/clash.html
 

Huggy Bear

Registered User
pilot
Jeez, CAT ... I was sweating just reading your post. "TURN OFF THAT DAMN WARBLE !!!" ... I may have to burn my shorts, t-shirt, ball cap, and flip-flops if I read it again. :eek:

CAT, remember when the "experts" said that an integral gun would no longer be required in air-to-air combat??? '50s?? '60s?? The more things change .... :)

And sensory overload? You mean with "sensors"?? You Nugget Veterans: try sensing a 25 plane "furball" some fine day @ a Red Flag in the bright, sunny Nevada skies ... that's 25 planes, all ACM'in in a 3-6 mile diameter circle .... just tryin' to stay alive in a TRAINING evolution such as this taxes the senses .... now THAT'S SENSORY .... :) ... and you don't even have to get shot at to do it.

Just fly or die ...


Nugget Veterans! :eek: I have to take it with a grain of salt when someone flying that cute little training command airplane makes fun us ;) :D for "sensors" sensory overload.

We still do big 20-30 plane strikes at fallon. But all ACM'n in a 3-6 mile diameter circle :eek: . Egads! I'm glad we don't do that anymore.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Just finished Huntington again. Also famous for a little article called The Clash of Civilizations that I highly reccomend.

If by famous you mean universally discredited and scoffed at by those in the IR field, then yeah. "Clash" is a hack job.

Brett
 
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