First flight of the P-8A Poseidon and all things related to transition

[webmaster]

As it should be - and nothing I wrote suggested it shouldn't be. Merely suggesting that not everything that leads us to the PCL = emergency....Which is kinda where the thread was headed, yes?

It is definitely the way I read it. "looking at you VP/VQ guys"... "put everyone else on a ground hold"

I agree that a dreaded three engine approach is fairly benign in a P3. But I would never second guess a pilot that felt he/she needed to declare an emergency. Maybe it is a brand new PPC and this is their first 3 engine landing, at max gross weight, unfavorable winds and a full tactical crew? Or, what if controllability might be an issue with loss of rudder authority on landing rollout and the prop didn't feather and is windmilling (I have had three of those landings, and I declared an emergency). I have flown at all P3 locations around the globe, and with all the squadrons as an FRS FIUT and FIT pilot, there are definitely differences in how many squadrons teach handling an emergencies and how weather and local SOP may condition them to respond. NUW with the constant back and forth with the TACAIR community, may predispose a PPC to declare an emergency so their plane isn't unduly delayed getting into the field (I have been delayed multiple times due to TACAIR on the ground and in flight because of course the P3 has enough fuel and can "wait it out"). That may not always be the case. So many different scenarios, I would rather have a PPC that is conservative in their decision making and declare an emergency if they felt they needed it.

On this subject, I also hate when tower calls "landing traffic on final, don't delay/take the nearest intersection". I have seem junior pilots try and dive off the runway, had two recently almost roll a nose wheel. I know you don't want your bud to wave off or execute the missed, but if you told tower well enough in advance that you were a full stop or option, then runway is yours and they shouldn't have sequenced traffic so tight. I know, off on a tangent, must be getting old

 

[Gatordev]

My fault. Sorry for the snarkiness. I took 2 ambiens last night...all I can say is ambien is a hell of a drug.

No sweat. I'm good if you are.

NUW players (looking at you VP/VQ guys), when you declare an emergency the unimaginative and lazy controllers at NUW put everyone else on a ground hold. I can't taxi from the hot pits to my line because there is a P-3 on a 10 mile final heroically handling the dreaded three engine landing.... Please use the word judiciously.

In the controllers' defense, it's not really anything they can do at the moment. What you're experiencing happens elsewhere, as well. When a plane declares the emergency, the HMFIC of emergencies ends up taking operational control of the airfield and ATC no longer owns the field (though they still run the airspace). As a result, Ground can't give permission to aircraft to move because they're not allowed. This would happen all the time at Whiting and it's happened to me at NASNI several times (usually when a Hornet has some issue).

Now I agree, it seems like the two entities could coordinate a little better, depending on how the field is set up, but above is usually the "why" you can't taxi.

One thing I always appreciated at Whiting was when we would all get stacked up at the holding points waiting for the field to clear, the controllers would check in with everyone for gas reports, especially guys like J.D. They knew we'd often be coming back just at min fuel and would give us extra handling to get down to South Field if gas was tight. When I've operated with Hornets out of Oceana, I don't think I saw quite that level of service, though the Hornet guys would always remind them when it was important.

 

[helolumpy]

...though the Hornet guys would always remind them when it was important.

Aren't Hornets the center of the universe???

 

[C420sailor]

Continuing on what scoober said, I'll drop the e-word if the emergency is time critical and I need priority handling (for example, an EP ending in 'land as soon as possible'), the emergency requires me to rapidly deviate from my current flight profile (an emergency descent, for example), or if I need them to roll the equipment (fire, etc). A precautionary engine shutdown with no secondaries? Nah.

I think this is a repost, but still very interesting...

 

[jmcquate]

Continuing on what scoober said, I'll drop the e-word if the emergency is time critical and I need priority handling (for example, an EP ending in 'land as soon as possible'), the emergency requires me to rapidly deviate from my current flight profile (an emergency descent, for example), or if I need them to roll the equipment (fire, etc). A precautionary engine shutdown with no secondaries? Nah.

I think this is a repost, but still very interesting...

Did he declare to get a different runway because of winds?

 

[BusyBee604]

I know, off on a tangent, must be getting old

Websan....aarrrgh,you are a mere toddler, as all things are relative!

*Sleep tight tonight, GeezerBee has the 'hot alert'!
BzB

 

[C420sailor]

Did he declare to get a different runway because of winds?

That's what I gathered.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Did he declare to get a different runway because of winds?

This happened some years ago. From what I remember, I don't think that clip had the whole conversation. The controller kept telling the AA aircrat to make and approach to a runway where the crosswind component exceeded the 767's demonstrated crosswind. The AA Captain kept telling the ontroller he couldn't accept that runway due to the winds. The controller wouldn't give him an acceptable runway so he declared an emergency. There was more but that's the basics. If I remember right, the AA Captain's actions stood up to the subsequent FAA scuitiny.

 

[BACONATOR]

Agree about the "Land As Soon As Possible" being a general guideline for declaring an emergency, although there aren't exceptions... specifically an engine failure which is technically a "practicable" EP (retarded, I know, but OPNAV picks up the slack), and likewise other Possible EPs I may think twice about. Nothing is hard and fast, and things ultimately come down to what you're experiencing in flight. Chip light? uh... depends. Hydraulic emergency.... yeah, likely.

 

[e6bflyer]

This happened some years ago. From what I remember, I don't think that clip had the whole conversation. The controller kept telling the AA aircrat to make and approach to a runway where the crosswind component exceeded the 767's demonstrated crosswind. The AA Captain kept telling the ontroller he couldn't accept that runway due to the winds. The controller wouldn't give him an acceptable runway so he declared an emergency. There was more but that's the basics. If I remember right, the AA Captain's actions stood up to the subsequent FAA scuitiny.

That is also how I heard the story. Additionally, that controller in particular was infamous for being difficult to work with and several other pilots have had previous history with him. That clip definitely doesn't tell the full story.

 

[707guy]

Only a couple that I'm aware of this and the 2 VC-25 that serve the Pres and VP.

There is this version of the 747:
http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=99

And the VP almost always travels on a 757. I believe the 747s are kept for the exclusive use of POTUS.

 

[Harrier Dude]

There is this version of the 747:
http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=99

And the VP almost always travels on a 757. I believe the 747s are kept for the exclusive use of POTUS.

I got a tour of AF2 once. Interesting, but basically just a regular 757 with inverted 1st class and coach. It's 90% 1st class, and only a few rows of commoner seating. There's also a small cabin for the Veep, but otherwise I thought the whole thing was pretty unremarkable.

 

[707guy]

I got a tour of AF2 once. Interesting, but basically just a regular 757 with inverted 1st class and coach. It's 90% 1st class, and only a few rows of commoner seating. There's also a small cabin for the Veep, but otherwise I thought the whole thing was pretty unremarkable.

We've had both here at work fairly routinely. Haven't seen the inside of either but VP visits are always a lot less "intensive" than POTUS visits.

 

[e6bflyer]

There is this version of the 747:
http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=99

And the VP almost always travels on a 757. I believe the 747s are kept for the exclusive use of POTUS.

Beat me to it. I took the tour of an E-4, they are stationed at Offutt. It is an interesting aircraft, but definitely a relic of the Cold War. The flight deck is straight out of 1975, the rest of the plane is very nicely appointed (plush, padded blue carpet). They are stretched very thin with only four aircraft and one pretty much always pulling presidential support and one on alert at Offutt. They actually have a VLF antenna like the E-6, but from what I understand don't use it too much. It is pretty interesting watching a 747 do T&Gs at Offutt.

 

[squorch2]

The prince in Bahrain will do that too. 'Cept they close down the whole airport for it.