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FY2018 O-4 Board

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
reduced opportunity to get selected for O-4 or reduced opportunity for BUPERS to select qualified candidates for O-4. Seems like there is a pretty present and real shortage of people sticking around for DH orders based on the last board vs people actually taking this year. Pretty big percentage of this year's DH selects had already dropped letters. Saying O-4 is competitive right now seems a little unrealistic....

I agree. Redued opportunity for the Navy as a whole, maybe? Aviation promotion rates this year certainly shouldn't be going down. Which, if the bureau is working the way it usually does, means that is exactly what will happen. And the results will post by Halloween or so.

How embarrassing.

On the plus side, if you make O-4, the DH results will come out as soon as the board adjourns- no 5+ month "tracker" necessary.
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
reduced opportunity to get selected for O-4 or reduced opportunity for BUPERS to select qualified candidates for O-4. Seems like there is a pretty present and real shortage of people sticking around for DH orders based on the last board vs people actually taking this year. Pretty big percentage of this year's DH selects had already dropped letters. Saying O-4 is competitive right now seems a little unrealistic....
Exactly. Take a look at those who screened for DH and the DH slate, and you'll notice a LOT of names on the slate not on the DH list. I know for a fact a bunch of SWTIs who resigned after seeing the slate and all the non-flying BS possibilities. Good luck to the Navy. They are going to have to go 3rd string to find guys willing to do DH.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
reduced opportunity to get selected for O-4 or reduced opportunity for BUPERS to select qualified candidates for O-4. Seems like there is a pretty present and real shortage of people sticking around for DH orders based on the last board vs people actually taking this year. Pretty big percentage of this year's DH selects had already dropped letters. Saying O-4 is competitive right now seems a little unrealistic....

Now you're asking me to dig deep on stuff I don't care about but, yes...
 

NUFO06

Well-Known Member
None
The Navy O-4 shortage is felt much worse on the staffs. I'm an O-3 taking an OIC O-4/5 billet. There is currently 1 O-4 and 2 O-3s filling 5 0-4 billets. My replacement is coming directly from his first sea tour. These billets are suppose to be shared by the other communities but its only Aviation that gets detailed to them.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
The Navy O-4 shortage is felt much worse on the staffs. I'm an O-3 taking an OIC O-4/5 billet. There is currently 1 O-4 and 2 O-3s filling 5 0-4 billets. My replacement is coming directly from his first sea tour. These billets are suppose to be shared by the other communities but its only Aviation that gets detailed to them.

Staffs are too big in the first place, and I don't feel bad about a staff feeling pain. Smaller staffs are better, IMHO. Operational side spends less time answering questions or dealing with creep of additional requirements that a larger staff creates.
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
The Navy O-4 shortage is felt much worse on the staffs. .

That's a good thing. Maybe the Navy will realize it has been pushing away good people because of it's myopic fixation on staff work. When that's all that's available to many post DH O4s, especially pilots, those O4s are going to bail vice take the staff bullet (or ANOTHER staff bullet).

Bottom line - staff work is making a career in naval aviation a lot less desirable for a lot of guys.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
There has to be a mechanism to generate Joint Qualified Officers. Post DH Joint (staff) tour is that mechanism and it provides the broadest talent pool from which major commanders and Flag Officers are eventually made. That's a statutory requirement. What's the alternative?
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
There has to be a mechanism to generate Joint Qualified Officers. Post DH Joint (staff) tour is that mechanism and it provides the broadest talent pool from which major commanders and Flag Officers are eventually made. That's a statutory requirement. What's the alternative?

The alternative is - not everyone is going to move up the corporation. Some people just want to be good at their job (flying planes, driving ships, or whatever), but they're forced into this path that's not necessarily right for them. I know we've discussed, ad nauseam, this very issue, but it remains relevant.

It made no sense for me, as a post OP-T DH to go to a staff on the USS Neverdock when I knew I would not make O5 and certainly not command. Why not use my experience as a pilot (and survivor of a previous navy staff tour and also a joint staff tour) for the benefit of the navy? It wasn't even an option, nope, I had to go to an afloat staff. So I got out. Quite a few other guys in my peer group have done the same. The lure of the 20 year retirement just isn't good enough to keep us on active duty anymore.

I don't want to completely malign staff work. Indeed, good staff work was a major driving force behind so much of the US military's success in previous conflicts. Some of what I did on both of my staff tours had value and was rewarding, but overall we wasted an incredible amount of time, effort and tax dollars accomplishing very little. I really felt like the staff was there to support the GO/FO good idea generation machine, help them get another star.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
We're mixing apples and oranges a bit here. There's regular staff work, then there's Joint coded billets. You can make valid arguments about the usefulness and bloat of staffs in general, or the proportion that the aviation community gets assigned, but saying, "Hey, I'm a pilot and I just want to fly" isn't a particularly realistic approach from an HR standpoint. At any rate, the number of post-DH flying billets is pretty minimal anyway. What kind of flying billet did you think you should have been assigned as a non-due course O4? I can't think of many.
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
We're mixing apples and oranges a bit here. There's regular staff work, then there's Joint coded billets. You can make valid arguments about the usefulness and bloat of staffs in general, or the proportion that the aviation community gets assigned, but saying, "Hey, I'm a pilot and I just want to fly" isn't a particularly realistic approach from an HR standpoint. At any rate, the number of post-DH flying billets is pretty minimal anyway. What kind of flying billet did you think you should have been assigned as a non-due course O4? I can't think of many.

I'm suggesting that staffs, all staffs joint or otherwise, are bloated and excessive - and less desirable for a lot of people than staying within their specialty. I can't stress enough how important it is to have well rounded people on staffs, specifically people with upward mobility. But there is also a need, I believe, for the tactical/practical expertise to stay operating aircraft. The system of "up or out", when the only way up is a very narrow path that gets very staffy later on (or early on in some cases), is a significant contributor to retention issues. Yet I never hear any leadership discussing this problem, they just throw money at it hoping it will go away.

What did I want post DH? Well, I knew going into my DH tour that it was likely my last as I knew what the Navy had for post OP-T types. But in an ideal world, the Navy would have made some effort to keep my tactical experience in the P-3 (complemented with a joint staff tour and a navy staff tour), and my flying experience as an IP. But the Navy doesn't really have an option for that, which I knew, so I left at almost 15 years, got at job in The Show, and went Air Guard. Spending my last 5 years in the Navy pushing paper with slim hopes of flying just didn't sit well with me.

I considered myself a pretty good officer and a damn good pilot. I would have liked to continue to fly for the Navy, I liked the P-3 a great deal, and would have been happy freezing my rank at O4. If the Navy had some sort of O4 squadron billets that were non-DH, you could retain a great deal of experience. Or if there were simply an operator path, where you stuck to operating, got really damn good at it, and could contribute significantly as a true SME on your platform, I would have gone that way. Hell, freeze my rank at O3 if thats what it took, and let people retire. That operator path could involve SOME staff experience, as having the tactical expertise on a staff is valuable, but the opportunity to have more than ONE operational tour for those not on the golden path should be available.

The officer focus is not on making good warfighters, it's on making skippers. But great leaders emerge from a group of good warfighters, not people who simply punch the right tickets in the right order. My staff experience generally reflected this, those on the path focus on getting that right staff, reinvent a wheel while there, get a great fitrep, move on to the next step - little real progress for the Navy was made. I'm not saying there aren't some good leaders created by the Navy's current system, I'm saying that the Navy is losing great warfighters because it only focuses on making skippers.

I know I'm beating a dead horse here. The Navy is run by people who've followed the path, got the punches, been "successful", and now run the system - so they don't see it as broken or less than optimal. I don't foresee it ever changing, which is sad because I don't see the Navy getting any better at warfighting for all the staff work that gets done. I do see it getting better at warfighting if it chooses to make great operators, in addition to great skippers.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
I'm saying that the Navy is losing great warfighters because it only focuses on making skippers.
So, the first step for a majority of those who become COs is to do JO tour as an FRS IP or WTI. To get there, you have all the requisite tactical qualifications. With that in mind, how do you say that we aren't focusing on war fighting and only on making skippers?
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
So, the first step for a majority of those who become COs is to do JO tour as an FRS IP or WTI. To get there, you have all the requisite tactical qualifications. With that in mind, how do you say that we aren't focusing on war fighting and only on making skippers?

I was a WTI but got a staff job for my efforts - though I do recognize why we want WTIs to go to a staff. Were it possible to go back to a squadron, or be an IP, after my staff tour to get my tactical and/or pilot skills back up to snuff, I'd have jumped on it. But the path was to go to the boat. VP navy did explore the super JO thing, but I don't think it lasted. I was able to get a joint tour that didn't involve the boat and that's why I ended up OP-T vice OP (I'm not complaining! Was a great deal!). My experience was certainly not a singular one in so far as a lot of good guys got less desirable jobs that took them away from flying, with the only path back to the plane via a shitty boat tour and then MAYBE a DH tour.

Certainly guys who go WTI or FRS IP are on the right track, but what about guys who just want to be tactically solid and don't want to go to the boat or have a future of nothing but staff tours? Are they dirtbags for not wanting that path? Or would the Navy reap the benefit of having a cadre of people in all squadrons who focused their entire lives on fighting that weapon system, led by people who have the requisite interest and diversity of experience?

You can't tell me that someone who spends 10-15 years operating a platform, or alternating between instructing and operating, is less tactically capable than a DH or skipper who followed the path. Right when we get good at our jobs, we get switched to another job that's often completely different and only contains aspects of our previous life. Then we go do something else, then we do something else still, and then maybe, if we are lucky (timing), a good officer (obviously), and got the right punches, we get a shot again at operating. That isn't a recipe for tactical excellence.

Or maybe I'm just a shit bag for not wanting to follow the path and therefore the time and effort I put into becoming qualified and the time and money spent by the Navy was wasted. I really don't believe that. And I know that there are many who would have stayed had they had an option to be really kick ass pilots/NFOs - even if it meant not promoting. The retention issues faced by the military are real and the solution isn't a bigger bonus.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
@PropStop somewhat aside from your argument(s), and more aimed at the staff job part of your previous post, and mainly for the benefit of others coming up to their DH tours and looking at orders:

there's another potential up-side to those evil staff jobs.... that is, not all of them are in the salt mines of the Pentagon. 2-3 years away from the fleet working a desk job with high QOL locations and working hours can be very good for the individual and the family. We bitch and complain a lot around here (usually with good reason) about OPTEMPO and lack of personal/family time. Don't let your front office or detailer tell you that the only way to accomplish that post DH staff tour is by punching yourself in the nuts. There are a lot of ways to do it right.
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
@PropStop somewhat aside from your argument(s), and more aimed at the staff job part of your previous post, and mainly for the benefit of others coming up to their DH tours and looking at orders:

there's another potential up-side to those evil staff jobs.... that is, not all of them are in the salt mines of the Pentagon. 2-3 years away from the fleet working a desk job with high QOL locations and working hours can be very good for the individual and the family. We bitch and complain a lot around here (usually with good reason) about OPTEMPO and lack of personal/family time. Don't let your front office or detailer tell you that the only way to accomplish that post DH staff tour is by punching yourself in the nuts. There are a lot of ways to do it right.

you're quite correct. Since I'd done three "shore" tours in a row I wasn't going to dodge an afloat staff bullet. However, others around me, who had more recently been to sea were looking at some sort of staff work.

QOL at my joint staff tour was great. Nearly every Friday off in the summer (I love the Air Force!), take leave nearly any time I wanted for however long I wanted (within reason), an actual hour+ a day for the gym. it was pretty great. Nevertheless, i really missed flying. And a lot of the work we did was for naught. But I don't regret taking it in the least. I had every bit the same, or better, QOL on my OP-T DH tour, and I was flying. My navy staff tour...QOL not so much.

My only point about staff tours is that they are driving people away, as evidenced by manning shortages in staffs. Maybe there isn't a better system, but there's definitely a retention problem and the threat of a series of staff tours is high on the list of things that drive people away. Pilots are especially adverse to things that would make them less competitive for post Navy flying jobs, which is understandable I think.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
What kind of flying billet did you think you should have been assigned as a non-due course O4? I can't think of many.
My understanding from a current VT CO is that the VTs aren't getting their allotted number of LCDRs for their minimal (2 or 3) DH billets. In fact, he said all his DH billets are currently gapped and being filled by LTs and that he's been told there are no LCDRs inbound next year either.

Seems like a very useful place to put a bunch of passed over or non-path aviation LCDRs.
 
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