Gaza

[BusyBee604]

If there's going to be any kind of resolution, both sides are going to have to compromise.

Hmmm, seems as if this reasoning would apply to our own political stalemate... in Congress, as well!
BzB

 

[BACONATOR]

The biggest point people miss is the debate about "diplomacy" (as if that was possible with terrorists) vs military might. Since the beginning of the state of Israel this has been ongoing. NOTHING will stop it. The Arabs make big deals out of every nickel and dime debate about land, but even if Israel conceded with every demand, there would be another demand shortly after. This isn't about the Golan Heights or the West Bank or wherever. This is going to continue until the Arabs push all the Jews into the ocean. They will not stop until Israel and the Jews cease to exist. Period. Any other expectation is a serious underestimation of their (and our: don't kid yourselves) enemies. Israel knows this, and has seen it with every previous concession. That's why they need to fight back and fight back hard. I applaud their old MO and I hope they maintain their resolve. Their recall of tens of thousands of reservists gives me hope, much to the chagrin of the rest of the ignorant, idealist, "progressive" world. They know what they might need to do and I hope they do it if the time comes.

 

[Brett327]

Ahh. The final solution. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as though you're advocating genocide, or something very close to it.

 

[Renegade One]

Well, if you're not interested in understanding the problem and what motivates the belligerents, then I'd say you're putting yourself at a significant disadvantage. As for Hamas, nothing is static. If they're presented with something that is in their best interests, chances are, they'll compromise on their stance on Israel.

Sounds like someone just saw "Lincoln," although I'm not sure I see any parallels between our civil war and the Middle East. Nobody is suggesting that we send troops to the Gaza Strip.

I'm sure you're right on the first paragraph, but if their "primary motivation" is the destruction of the State of Israel, I'm not sure I'm really all that interested in listening with a sympathetic ear. And I do hope you're correct in your assessment, I think, that Hamas will behave like a rational actor. That would surely be a good thing.

Yeah, the Civil War thing is certainly an imperfect analogy...just proof that sometimes things have to burn out rather than smolder on. Did see "Lincoln" though...and thought it was great.

 

[Renegade One]

Ahh. The final solution. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as though you're advocating genocide, or something very close to it.

I don't think anyone is advocating genocide. But sometimes a nation just has to draw a line in the sand (startlingly good metaphor here...) and say "Look, this shit stops right now. Here's the deal...we're a dump truck, and you're riding a MoPed. If you continue to fuck with a dump truck, well...you're going to get dumped on. Now, go live your lives, turn your piece of the desert into a garden like we did with ours, put your young men to work building (rebuilding?) something you can call a home/homeland. Hell, open casinos if you want and become a tourist state. Join the community of nations on this great spaceship called Mother Earth. Encourage foreign investment in your vast labor pool. Make Smart Phones or Hondas or Beanie Babies or whatever...just keep your dogs from crapping on my lawn. Peace out!"

 

[Flash]

The biggest point people miss is the debate about "diplomacy" (as if that was possible with terrorists) vs military might. Since the beginning of the state of Israel this has been ongoing. NOTHING will stop it. The Arabs make big deals out of every nickel and dime debate about land, but even if Israel conceded with every demand, there would be another demand shortly after. This isn't about the Golan Heights or the West Bank or wherever. This is going to continue until the Arabs push all the Jews into the ocean. They will not stop until Israel and the Jews cease to exist. Period. Any other expectation is a serious underestimation of their (and our: don't kid yourselves) enemies. Israel knows this, and has seen it with every previous concession. That's why they need to fight back and fight back hard. I applaud their old MO and I hope they maintain their resolve. Their recall of tens of thousands of reservists gives me hope, much to the chagrin of the rest of the ignorant, idealist, "progressive" world. They know what they might need to do and I hope they do it if the time comes.

Nothing like lumping all 'the Arabs' into one category. You are sorely mistaken if you think all Arabs want to see Israel destroyed and Jews ceasing to exist, there is certainly a great number that think that way but many including the more level-headed leaders in the region realize that Israel is not going to cease to exist and the Jews who live there aren't going away. There is even a considerable amount of respect amongst some Arabs of not only Israel's military acheivements but of their economic successes and standard of living as well.

Many people smarter than I as well as many of our closest allies and friends around the world say that Israel will not have any sort of peace as long as it is not willing to reach an agreement with the Palestinians on land, peace and statehood. At least when the Palestinians have their own functioning government with sovereignty over their own affairs they can focus more on fixing what they can internally instead of venting all their anger against the Israelis who still hold considerable power over their them. Even simple demographics are working against Israel with Arab citizens of Israel and Palestinians west of the Jordan River, with a much higher birthrate than Jews in Israel, likely to outnumber Jews in Israel in just a few years.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Ahh. The final solution. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as though you're advocating genocide, or something very close to it.

There is a difference between genocide and total war.

 

[Renegade One]

There is a difference between genocide and "just" war.

FIFY...and agree. But we're not there yet. There appear to be off-ramps that could be taken...

 

[Harrier Dude]

FIFY...and agree. But we're not there yet. There appear to be off-ramps that could be taken...

I was speaking in general terms, not just this conflict.

There are those that believe anything more than limited armed conflict with a diplomatic conclusion is on par with ethnic cleansing or the holocaust.

Total, unlimited war is a potential COA, and should not be disregarded just because it is messy and unpleasant.

That's not to say that it should be our first option, by any means.

 

[Renegade One]

I was speaking in general terms, not just this conflict...Total, unlimited war is a potential COA, and should not be disregarded just because it is messy and unpleasant...That's not to say that it should be our first option, by any means.

Concur. That's why we all have (or had) jobs in this business.

 

[Brett327]

Lets let Otto speak for himself. I'm interested in his unique POV. But to your post, there's a point where the two converge. If they never stop resisting, you pretty much have to kill them all. Total war is not politically viable and would never be allowed to happen in this context, so it's pretty much a moot point.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Total war is not politically viable and would never be allowed to happen in this context, so it's pretty much a moot point.

With spineless leadership, you are correct.

By "in this context", do you mean the Israel/Palestine conflict, or the ill-named Global War on Terror?

At some point though, it's going to occur to even the most squeamish amongst us that we either need to take the fight to a decisive point, or stop fighting altogether and accept the consequences.

 

[Brett327]

Are you talking generally, or in the case of Israel? I would imagine that if Israel started carpet bombing Gaza and the West Bank, the wrath they would incur from the international community, the Arab world and every swinging Muslim extremist dick would far outweigh any benefit. There would also be an extraordinary amount of backlash from the US, particularly under this administration. So, in my view, it's got more to do with cost/benefit calculus than spinelessness.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Are you talking generally, or in the case of Israel? I would imagine that if Israel started carpet bombing Gaza and the West Bank, the wrath they would incur from the international community, the Arab world and every swinging Muslim extremist dick would far outweigh any benefit. There would also be an extraordinary amount of backlash from the US, particularly under this administration. So, in my view, it's got more to do with cost/benefit calculus than spinelessness.

I was speaking in general terms.

I agree that Israel can't afford to be the aggressor at this point, but the Arab world, particularly Palestine and their more extremist backers, need to get it through their skulls that the best they can hope for on a direct action tack is to tie the Israelis. They'll never push them into the sea. When the Israelis fire the FPF, it's going to be OVER. For everybody involved.

If your contention is that they can achieve more by terrorism and extremist rhetoric and then scaling back later to seem conciliatory, then I disagree. They're not just crying out for the end of Israel and the US to make a point. That's their literal stated goal.

At some point this is going to reach a tipping point, and the Israelis are going to have total war on the table.

But I agree that they aren't there yet. I would argue that the Palestinians are there mentally, though.

 

[Brett327]

No, I'm proposing the opposite. If Hamas wants to become the legitimate leadership of the Palestinian people, they need to renounce terrorism, reign in the splinter groups and moderate their position on Israel, I.E., the tie solution.

I think we're in agreement for most of this.