Government May Nationalize the Auto Industry

[mmx1]

You seem to be confusing the Volt with the EV-1, or at least pretending the Volt is the same sort of project. Far from it. The Volt is GM's ploy to stop playing catch-up with Japanese firms in hybrid technology (and GM's hybrids do suck), and instead leapfrog them. It's a ploy to save the company by introducing a paradigm-shifter, not some ill-hearted attempted to win government favor. If anything can save GM, this will. Perhaps not soon enough, but oh well.

A little reading for you:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/general-motors

Oh, and the guy that kick-started the project?
Former Marine aviator Bob Lutz, now Vice Chair of Product Development at GM and a guy who's said that global warming is a "total crock of shit". And yes, that is his Alpha Jet

 

[FrankTheTank]

This is where you lose me. Just because management agrees to something doesn't mean it's in everyone's best interest. Unions are powerful...that fact that they can force management to concede certain points doesn't mean jack...except that they are too powerful and need to be reformed.

CEO pay is all about the free market. You think they're paid "too much?" In relation to what??

GM: G Richard Wagoner Jr
Total Compensation: $8.5 mil

Remember under congressional scrutiny, Lee Ioccoca agreed to accept just $1 in annual salary until the loan was repaid.

1 Dollar or 8,500,000.00 dollars; Do the Math...

NASCAR is probably the most effective marketing tool for the Big 3. Toyota is doing it, and they are not having money problems. I think you can look elsewhere for the cause. Private jets and money spent on marketing are drops in the bucket.

Yes are effective but if you ain't got the cash to spend... Well... Do you live on credit??? Because these corporations do... Drops in the bucket or not, the dollars spent are REAL, regardless....

BTW Bevo- I live around the corner... You can come and see my tax statements (over a beer of course)... [$26,8XX.XX as of the 15th Nov] We are funding enough welfare, last thing we need is corporate welfare... Especially when the guys at the top are still making some serious bank!


Found this little gem:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070801203148AAhMiaM

Normally between 10-15 million for normal races. Allstate just paid 18.2 million for the brickyard!

But it's marketing, so it's a tax write off!

 

[Random8145]

American CEOs are paid so much likely because American corporations are the biggest and most productive in the world. When you get to the upper echelons, pay goes up exponentially. When you expect someone to be at the helm of a major corporation, you have to pay them accordingly.

Same with professional sports or acting.

 

[FrankTheTank]

American CEOs are paid so much likely because American corporations are the biggest and most productive in the world. When you get to the upper echelons, pay goes up exponentially. When you expect someone to be at the helm of a major corporation, you have to pay them accordingly.

Same with professional sports or acting.

Sure EXCEPT when said company is looking at bankruptcy! Then that CEO/GM/producer is not doing their job... But say Ben Afflick gets an assload of money and the movie fails... Is it that they paid him to much or something else because they knew how much he cost when they decided to hire him for the part..

BTW I think actors and athletes (both Union members) are over paid.. But as the saying goes you are worth what you negotiate! That becomes a fixed cost to the company/team/producer! So if the company is struggling, how is it labor's (a fixed cost) fault? Just cause they are union and get paid better than those not represented???

 

[navy09]

GM: G Richard Wagoner Jr
Total Compensation: $8.5 mil

Remember under congressional scrutiny, Lee Ioccoca agreed to accept just $1 in annual salary until the loan was repaid.

1 Dollar or 8,500,000.00 dollars; Do the Math...

Come on sir, my point is that anti-competitive, anti-capitalist, anti-free market behavior is bad :icon_rage

This is just another example. Government regulation of salaries is seriously bad stuff. Of course, Ioccoca wasn't 'forced,' but still...

Basically, this example makes no sense. Just b/c someone CAN run a company, or fly a FedEx jet, or build cars for a certain salary doesn't mean it's the fair market wage. When outside forces (unions, gov't) 'tell' the market what to do, it's bad.

 

[Bevo16]

You seem to be confusing the Volt with the EV-1, or at least pretending the Volt is the same sort of project. Far from it. The Volt is GM's ploy to stop playing catch-up with Japanese firms in hybrid technology (and GM's hybrids do suck), and instead leapfrog them. It's a ploy to save the company by introducing a paradigm-shifter, not some ill-hearted attempted to win government favor. If anything can save GM, this will. Perhaps not soon enough, but oh well.

A little reading for you:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/general-motors

Shipmate, I am not the one who is confused.

A little reading for you:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/20/lutz-gm-is-ok-with-losing-money-on-the-volt-for-a-while/


http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/GM-will-lose-money-on-the-new-Chevrolet-Volt/


http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/03/gm-well-lose-ou.html

They concede that they will lose $250,000,000 a year on the Volt, and any future profit depends on yet to be developed battery technology. With gas getting a lot closer to $1.50 a gallon, explain to me why I want a car that can only go 40 miles on a charge? Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.

 

[mmx1]

The first link says they'd lose 250 mil a year.....building hybrids. RIF :icon_wink

They're anticipating losing money on the first (or first few) models of a new technology. That's not at all surprising - see what Microsoft had to hemorrhage on the Xbox to break into the console industry.

But the decision they're making is purely business - investment in technology now will reap rewards later. It has nothing to do with being "green" for the politicians sake.

If it weren't for the current crisis, GM had the funds to pull it off - they had solid cash reserves. At the same time, do you seriously think gas prices won't recover as the economy does?

 

[FrankTheTank]

Come on sir, my point is that anti-competitive, anti-capitalist, anti-free market behavior is bad :icon_rage

This is just another example. Government regulation of salaries is seriously bad stuff. Of course, Ioccoca wasn't 'forced,' but still...

Basically, this example makes no sense. Just b/c someone CAN run a company, or fly a FedEx jet, or build cars for a certain salary doesn't mean it's the fair market wage. When outside forces (unions, gov't) 'tell' the market what to do, it's bad.

Midn... I think you are missing my point... Corporate greed has broken the competitive, capitialist, free-market principle... And I do not think regulation is necessarily the solution... But something needs to happen; if your company of which you take an ass load of cash in payment can't stay afloat then..... For the record... I do not agree with a buyout! Which was the original point of the post but I do think Unions serve a purpose to PROTECT the worker!!! I am that and that only; a worker that needs my Union to protect my craft and trade!!!

 

[Bevo16]

They're anticipating losing money on the first (or first few) models of a new technology.

Did you stop reading there? What was it going to take to start making money? TECHNOLOGY THAT DOES NOT EXIST!!!!

Sure, gas prices will go up eventually, but it will probably be 5-6 years until they see the highs that they did last summer. We are going into a world wide recession, and things are much worse in other parts other parts of the world than they are here. We are nowhere near the bottom. The demand for oil world wide has fallen in record fashion.

All of the "chicken littles" who were running around during the summer saying that the sky was falling IRT forever skyrocketing oil prices are now looking at the acorn at their feet and wondering why the feel so silly. (I'm looking at you, Flash).

Supply and demand folks, supply and demand. Nobody wants an electric roller skate and "alternative energy" sources don't fucking work. They lose money in an economy where losing money is not an option. Anyone who owned GM stock and held it when Lutz was making those decisions was an F'ing idiot and they deserve to lose money right along with them. If these alternative energy sources could work and turn a profit, Obama would not have to run half of his campaign on promises to throw taxpayer money at "green energy" and threaten oil companies with his "windfall profit" farce.

We should be using this down time in the economy to drill the fuck out of Alaska and off shore (actually create some American jobs, what a concept) so when OPEC cuts production and things get back in swing, we will be able to stand on our own energy THAT WORKS.

 

[navy09]

Corporate greed has broken the competitive, capitialist, free-market principle...

ECON 101: "Greed"...or the desire to accumulate wealth...is the cornerstone of capitalism. The only things "breaking" the system are the bailouts, unions, and regulation.

I am that and that only; a worker that needs my Union to protect my craft and trade!!!

Laissez-faire!!!!

 

[mmx1]

Technology that doesn't exist? You mean the batteries they were testing back in March and for which they selected a production supplier in August?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/29/lutz-says-a-volt-battery-supplier-selected-wont-say-who/

Contrary to your hysteria, what Lutz actually said was the first generation volt may turn a profit if the battery life turns out better than their estimates, dropping the warranty costs, but that would just be icing on the cake. They aren't counting on improved battery life for future profitability - you just plum made that up, like the 250 million figure on how much the Volt would cost.

The only chicken little I see in this thread is you.

 

[Flash]

All of the "chicken littles" who were running around during the summer saying that the sky was falling IRT forever skyrocketing oil prices are now looking at the acorn at their feet and wondering why the feel so silly. (I'm looking at you, Flash).

When the hell did I say anything like that? Quite putting words in my mouth......

We should be using this down time in the economy to drill the fuck out of Alaska and off shore (actually create some American jobs, what a concept) so when OPEC cuts production and things get back in swing, we will be able to stand on our own energy THAT WORKS.

Under no scenario that I have seen, make that a credible scenario, can we rely on domestic energy sources anytime soon.

 

[Brett327]

When the hell did I say anything like that? Quite putting words in my mouth......



Under no scenario that I have seen, make that a credible scenario, can we rely on domestic energy sources anytime soon.

Flash, I'm with you in that we will never be energy self-sufficient while we're using petroleum as our primary energy source, but I'd be interested to study the numbers and effects on the equasion if domestic production were increased. I understand that it's not a panacea, but if the benefits are justified by the expense (financial, environmental, etc), it seems unreasonable to exclude the possibility that domestic production should not be increased just because it won't solve all our problems. Seems like a straw-man used by the eco-left who lack a cogent argument to not drill besides the possibility of upsetting some critters in Alaska. Thoughts?

Brett

 

[Bevo16]

Nobody is saying that drilling alone is the key to 100% energy, but the libs are saying that we can't drill, you can't even bring up nuclear energy and Obama has vowed to bankrupt the coal industry. That's the Democrats energy policy. We are not going to fix our energy issues with solar panels and windmills. We need solutions, not guesses and gambles.

We need to build nuclear plants, coal plants, improve electric infrastructure, drill like crazy and build new refineries in the western United States (less distribution costs for petroleum products). We need to end the federal subsidy programs for ethanol NOW. Destroying 30%+ of our national corn crop is stupid, and it's going to starve people in developing nations and cause hunger in low income areas here at home.

 

[The Chief]

Nobody is saying that drilling alone is the key to 100% energy, ...

There is a whole list of "no-no's", including drilling, that the left koolaide drinkers say we cannot do, include but not limited to:

A. Nuclear power. Other countries chide us for not using more nuclear. For instance, France produces 70% of their electrical power from nuclear. Japan is almos totally nuclear and hydro.

B. Windpower. Cape Cod, is an ideal off-shore wind farm. Always have wind, ok koolaide guys - most always - located off shore in shallow water, near high population areas that need the power. Guess why we cannot? NIMBY.

C. Hydro power. No more dams, might interrupt spawning pattern of the snail darter.

D. LPG(CNG). Lefties say "we do not have the supportive infastructure". Well Tokyo converted almost all of their commerical, including private taxi to LPG in early 70's. Sure, minor problems with infastructure, but it has worked ever since.

E. Coal. You want to see the koolaide folks get their dress over their collective heads in a hurry, mention coal. We got lots of it and the viable technology to make it clean.

Wait - these are all roadblocks from the left "I see only Green" folks. What could be their agenda?