Hard Power and Soft Power

[Griz882]

If I am Putin, I am not seeing the benefit to a cease fire any more. I’m seeing Ukraine having lost its key supporter, and thinking I am going to keep the pressure maximal until there is a break in the stalemate and a collapse somewhere to exploit. Right or wrong. Anything less than Ukraine collapsing is a failure on his part, after all.

You may be right. I rather doubt that even Trump could ignore a Putin win…especially as the final stages of any breakthrough will televised.

 

[Randy Daytona]

In an effort to keep things aligned with ground reality, this is not the first time a U.S. POTUS has yelled at Zelensky, just the first time one has made an unfortunate (and unprofessional) public spectacle. Zelensky clearly misread the room and Trump responded in a remarkably immature way, but Zelensky has a bad habit of making demands from allies and then scolding them when they don’t follow.

I am all for Europe stepping into the current confusion and taking the lead on the Ukrainian issue. We already know what they’ll push for…an end to the fighting, a return to 2022 borders, and a European PKF…all things Zelensky opposes.

Thought you and a few others might find this article in The New Yorker interesting:

The Imperialist Philosopher Who Demanded the Ukraine War

For decades, Alexander Dugin argued that Russia had a messianic mission, and that destroying an independent Ukraine was necessary to fulfilling it.

www.newyorker.com

 

[JTS11]

In an effort to keep things aligned with ground reality, this is not the first time a U.S. POTUS has yelled at Zelensky, just the first time one has made an unfortunate (and unprofessional) public spectacle. Zelensky clearly misread the room and Trump responded in a remarkably immature way, but Zelensky has a bad habit of making demands from allies and then scolding them when they don’t follow.

I am all for Europe stepping into the current confusion and taking the lead on the Ukrainian issue. We already know what they’ll push for…an end to the fighting, a return to 2022 borders, and a European PKF…all things Zelensky opposes.

Griz, this was a set up. Case in point was the reporter from a fringe right-wing outlet, who is MTG's boyfriend, asking Zelenskyy if he had a suit. It was obvious that Vance was there to stoke this.

 

[robav8r]

If I am Putin, I am not seeing the benefit to a cease fire any more. I’m seeing Ukraine having lost its key supporter, and thinking I am going to keep the pressure maximal until there is a break in the stalemate and a collapse somewhere to exploit. Right or wrong. Anything less than Ukraine collapsing is a failure on his part, after all.

Was thinking the same thing. I'm sure the EU, U.S. and NATO are nervously watching what this fissure between Zelensky and POTUS will result in from Putin's perspective . . .

 

[Griz882]

Griz, this was a set up. Case in point was the reporter from a fringe right-wing outlet, who is MTG's boyfriend, asking Zelenskyy if he had a suit. It was obvious that Vance was there to stoke this.

Even if it was the only end point would be to drag Zelensky to the treaty table (with him fully understanding the realities of the end product). He was nearly there in any case. If it was some kind of a weird “chess move” to force greater European engagement it appears to be working for now.

 

[Spekkio]

Even if it was the only end point would be to drag Zelensky to the treaty table

Zelensky's goal has always been the restoration of all Ukranian territory and admission into NATO. He's not going to compromise on either point.

Media setup or not, that's also why the Biden administration was frustrated with him. He is determined to win back Ukraine's territory or die trying, and he thinks the U.S. owes him our support.

I don't blame him for his perspective since he is fighting an existential threat, but it's not in America's best interest for this conflict to go regional or global.

 

[robav8r]

It's kinda funny (to me at least) how Victoria Nuland has been so adept at remaining below the RADAR on all things Ukraine, especially surrounding 2014.

 

[Griz882]

Zelensky's goal has always been the restoration of all Ukranian territory and admission into NATO. He's not going to compromise on either point.

Media setup or not, that's also why the Biden administration was frustrated with him. He is determined to win back Ukraine's territory or die trying, and he thinks the U.S. owes him our support.

I don't blame him for his perspective since he is fighting an existential threat, but it's not in America's best interest for this conflict to go regional or global.

I don’t blame him either. He is struggling to face the facts on the ground.

 

[taxi1]

fighting an existential threat

I go back to an earlier thought, I wonder if they aren’t thinking about getting a WMD deterrent capability via whatever means. I know I would.

 

[robav8r]

Just trying to lighten the mood . . . . .

 

[Faded Float Coat]

I'm genuinely curious what position some of you would've been taking circa 1939-1940. Too on the nose to presume that of Charles Lindberg?

 

[Griz882]

I'm genuinely curious what position some of you would've been taking circa 1939-1940. Too on the nose to presume that of Charles Lindberg?

It is a pointless comparison. Not in terms of industry, not in terms of politics, not in any terms. Why not compare it to the U.S. in 1860 or Rhodesia in 1978?

If you are struggling for an easy historical comparison try Europe in 1914 where thoughtless treaties and foolhardy escalation danced the world into its First World War, with devastating consequences.

 

[JTS11]

I'm genuinely curious what position some of you would've been taking circa 1939-1940. Too on the nose to presume that of Charles Lindberg?

People forget where the America First slogan comes from.

America First and WWII

Discover the childhood home of Charles A. Lindbergh, the famed environmental activist, inventor, and aviation pioneer. Explore how ambition, fame, and life on the Mississippi River shaped his complex character.

www.mnhs.org

 

[Griz882]

People forget where the America First slogan comes from.

America First and WWII

Discover the childhood home of Charles A. Lindbergh, the famed environmental activist, inventor, and aviation pioneer. Explore how ambition, fame, and life on the Mississippi River shaped his complex character.

www.mnhs.org

I’m not arguing for isolationism, in fact I’m against it, but America has had “America First” isolationist since about 1900 - the dawn of America’s global navy.

 

[Griz882]

And…as expected…here we are. Maybe @JTS11 is right…the whole Oval Office thing was a set up and Europe bought it.