-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
Harrier question
- Thread starter BigIron
- Start date
I DID try to slash my wrists, on the 31st MEU. As I lay there bleeding in the forward head, 3 Phrog guys came in, handed me a 4 inch thick 'smart pack' and dragged me to a 2 hour brief on how to scan your instruments during brown-out conditions in a dusty LZ. I'm not sure if I died and went to hell or if the Navy docs pulled me through, because when I woke up I was still on the MEU, and I couldn't tell the difference!
Rep for that - Im laughing!
Dont think we could just enter a few points into MOMs, go get a PB&J, and hit the rack -- but it is a different kind of flying! -
Planning is painful, it's all part of being a part of the team!
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Concur, and if they were briefing that much detail during an AMC brief, they're wrong!
I know, I know. I think you get my point here, that the flying IS different, and I always felt that rather than sitting through a detailed hour(s) long presentation by the assistant Flight-E Lieutenant on diffent helo formations, I could have been studying/planning for the actual tactics I need to operate my aircraft effectively.
I'm not saying the Harrier guys don't need to understand what is going on with rotary wing tactics, but it can often get to a level of detail that makes me want to jam a pencil in my eye, and I always feel like the rotor guys don't try to reciprocate and understand how we work. How many radar intercept, Litening ISR, or PGM tactics lectures did you have to sit through as part of the HMM? One team one fight right? I've heard of it done once and it was because the Harrier OIC was trying to make a point, and it went over like a fart in church, Harriers now banned from Powerpoint. Check.
Yes, I know it takes teamwork, and I've never been one of those types to shun a guy just because he flys something else, that's just crazy and counterproductive. It just feels to me like the ACE is a basketball team that showed up with an All-star, two hockey players, and a horse.
By the way, I'm the All-Star. And don't be a Mid-rats hater. PB&J's are where it's AT!
:icon_smil
Rep for that! - Not sure if Im a hockey player or the horse - but Im leaning towards horse!
Can't imagine why someone would think you're not a team player... You seem like the guy in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail," saying "Look! I'm being oppressed!"
I've never seen phrog guys insisting on getting their way. If anything, we have to team up with the shitter guys to get the skidkids to shut the F up. 46 pilots probably have the smallest egos of any platform. Some would say that's for good reason! In any event, I think the phrogburn is being thown way out of proportion.
Maybe this is like the white guy saying he doesn't know what all the minorities are complaining about, but I think I've been around the Corps and the MEU enough to know that it is what you make of it. After a couple of months together, everyone is buds, generally speaking, unless they choose not to be.
Ummmm 99% of this conversation is personality dependant more than TMS.
Things that work against Harrier intergration: They join the HMM (REIN) late, this was mentioned before but I will reiterate, everyone else has worked and planned together much more closely during work-ups but the Harrier guys just show up overhead from Yuma, Iwakuni or Cherry Point(?). The first time you really see all of them on a daily basis is when you are no kidding sailing out.
Deck cycle-Harrier ops really throw a monkey wrench in deck cycles-this is a planning obstacle nothing more nothing less. Many things contribute to this 1. the air department on most LHAs/LHDs cant seem to do anything else when a Harrier is taking off or landing, this causes frustration as you sit in the starboard D watching your fuel guage creep lower, needing to piss and going to miss dinner wondering why you cant land on spot 2 while the Harriers land on spot 9.
Short legs- Harriers burn gas fast so very soon after the launch it is time to think about recovery which also Fs up the deck cycle (even more than the 1.5 mile Phrog upwinds and the Shitters hovering 100 yards short of the spot)
The above issues are simply planning considerations that if everyone adresses them correctly arent that big a deal.
The rest is all personalities. The HMM is big enough that there is not a collective personality per se as for the rest, the Det OICs are huge contributors to the get along or not. There is much an HMM can ans should do to perpetuate the "we are all one squadron" thing, I heard "this only applies to the core HMM" a little too much to foster a one big family mentality. I have floated with a great Harrier det daddy and a not so great one. Once we realized all the Harrier guys hated their OIC (the not great one) as much as everyone else did we all got along quite well and I did in fact attend a couple of their tactics classes.
You will float with many of the guys you remember from flight school, its not that bad; if you float with a bunch of Marine aviators and dont find yourself looking forward to having a beer with over 75% of them you are in the wrong business.
Things that work against Harrier intergration: They join the HMM (REIN) late, this was mentioned before but I will reiterate, everyone else has worked and planned together much more closely during work-ups but the Harrier guys just show up overhead from Yuma, Iwakuni or Cherry Point(?). The first time you really see all of them on a daily basis is when you are no kidding sailing out.
Deck cycle-Harrier ops really throw a monkey wrench in deck cycles-this is a planning obstacle nothing more nothing less. Many things contribute to this 1. the air department on most LHAs/LHDs cant seem to do anything else when a Harrier is taking off or landing, this causes frustration as you sit in the starboard D watching your fuel guage creep lower, needing to piss and going to miss dinner wondering why you cant land on spot 2 while the Harriers land on spot 9.
Short legs- Harriers burn gas fast so very soon after the launch it is time to think about recovery which also Fs up the deck cycle (even more than the 1.5 mile Phrog upwinds and the Shitters hovering 100 yards short of the spot)
The above issues are simply planning considerations that if everyone adresses them correctly arent that big a deal.
The rest is all personalities. The HMM is big enough that there is not a collective personality per se as for the rest, the Det OICs are huge contributors to the get along or not. There is much an HMM can ans should do to perpetuate the "we are all one squadron" thing, I heard "this only applies to the core HMM" a little too much to foster a one big family mentality. I have floated with a great Harrier det daddy and a not so great one. Once we realized all the Harrier guys hated their OIC (the not great one) as much as everyone else did we all got along quite well and I did in fact attend a couple of their tactics classes.
You will float with many of the guys you remember from flight school, its not that bad; if you float with a bunch of Marine aviators and dont find yourself looking forward to having a beer with over 75% of them you are in the wrong business.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
As usual, I agree almost 100% with Skidkid. Without getting into too great of detail, this is a particulaly bad time for me to have this debate. Two or three months ago would have rendered far more optimistic input from me.
Aside from workups, you're right. It's a pure logistical issue and not one that can be solved with what we've been dealt.
While this is a classic example of "they mess up the way we fly", rather than "it is can be difficult to integrate all of our ACE assets at the same time", this largely depends on the navy and their air department. Especially the Air Boss. There is no reason that all of the ACE assets can't fly an integrated flight schedule. If there is a solid air plan, and pilots are on time, a competant deck will be able to make it work. There are three components to that: air plan, pilot timing, and deck flow. If any one of them is hosed up, the operations suffer. We (ACE) largely control two of the three, so we need to make sure our ducks are in a row before we throw stones at the deck. Training the deck (and to some extent the Boss) will pay off hugely if we take the time to do it. I've seen it go both ways several times. The Essex is probably a lost cause, but I digress.
True to some extent, but easily managed with proper timing, imaginative planning (tankers, pit-turns, etc) and timely execution. Like you said, proper planning and execution makes it work.
Also true. The vast majority of the ACE gets along well across TMS. When strong personalities are involved (and mine admittedly is) there will be friction. When it's the CO, then you can bet on the outcome.
Concur.
Cut and paste the following link into your browser:
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/DD9F99F98A4E13A2852572DF000221C3?opendocument
It's a stroy on USMC.com about a MEU ACE -- That Selfish "keepin the Harrier bros down" HMM CO actually let a military reporter do a story on his squadron - and guess what airframe it's all about???? - that selfish bastard!
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/DD9F99F98A4E13A2852572DF000221C3?opendocument
It's a stroy on USMC.com about a MEU ACE -- That Selfish "keepin the Harrier bros down" HMM CO actually let a military reporter do a story on his squadron - and guess what airframe it's all about???? - that selfish bastard!
From a boat point of view, the largest problem was too much optimism in an air plan. Regardless of how good the deck crew is (and Essex should be the best due to their optempo), there are still only 6 spots on the left side of the boat. No amount of competence on the part of the deck or dedication on the part of pilots can change that. I won't even try to guess how many times we saw some optimist try to write an airplan that included landing, shutting down, folding and stuffing a shitter in under 20 minutes to make harrier ops happen.
The most common cause of friction I saw between the harrier and helo guys was on launches, not recoveries. Harriers getting delayed as the helos try to stuff a dead bird and launch a spare, and helos stuck in the D as the harriers were late to launch could easily kill an entire plan.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
They don't have to. The CO just announces it as squadron policy.
That's why we team up with the skidkids to form "Team Meateater" to battle your "Team Grasseater"
I don't think it's an ego thing, really. It's about power.
Agreed. By the way, I never said I had phrogburn. Just introducing the term to the thread for conceptual purposes. This will probably change soon, however.
Great analogy. Maybe that makes me Al Sharpton.....overly sensative to aggression, but still has valid gripes from time to time.
Maybe if you think about how the navy "sticks it to" the Marines (gym hours, laundery days, blue/green everything with all the GQ on green) on many ships, you can see what I'm talking about. Basically, we're (Marines) guests on their ship. We all talk a good game about One team, One fight, but in the end they (the navy) holds all the cards. If they want to, and often do, they just politely tell us to pound sand and do what they want. After all, they have the CATF. We have the CLF. Ever sit on your butt all day waiting to test while the navy conducts ASW drills that they never mentioned before and won't turn for winds? Do you see the parallels? Maybe these are minor or even petty greivences, but they add up to grate on your nerves.
Very true. It's funny how I can not get along with a squadron, yet like just about everybody in it.
It's funny how I've been told many times on this thread that the more I try to fit in/integrate/get involved the better things will go. I've tried that several times now. It would be great, and might even work, if there was some kind of reciprocation. If you can look me in the eye and tell me that you don't know a guy who loves "putting a jet guy in his place" or whatever you want to call it, then you are a lucky man. I freely admit that I know jet guys who hate the HMM with a passion, and let it show. I'm sure that a few of you believe that I'm in that catagory. I'm not. I'm just a guy tired of beating his head against the wall. I'd rather just call things like they are, and move on. It's 90% good, but I spend the majority of my time dealing with the 10%.
gaijin6423
Ask me about ninjas!
The last time I was on a MEU was a while ago, but I'll be chopping as the ASE OIC here shortly for the 24th MEU. As far as being the bastard children of the ACE, it doesn't get much worse than the DASC. But we just role with it, because even though I've only been around for about 12 years or so, I learned a long time ago that beating my head against a wall pointlessly is, well, pointless. I could spend all my time bitching about this and that, or I could just get down to business, because the bottom line is, the guys on the ground are screaming for all of our support. Each of us may have a different perspective on how that support can be best trained for and ultimately provided for, and there are always sacrifices made to accomplish the big blue arrows. I offer up that the best way mitigate those sacrifices is to explain to anyone who'll listen--and those who won't--precisely what your capabilities, limitations, and goals are, so that the next time there's an AOM/CO's call and some crazy bullshit gets tossed out, not just you, but everyone in the room is saying, "No way, because that's going to totally fuck up the (insert_MOS) guys' world." Because those guys on the ground trading lead with the badguys are still out there, waiting...
(What happens when you bang your head against the wall too often.)
(What happens when you bang your head against the wall too often.)
Attachments
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
It's funny you mention the MACG boys. I was about to mention them myself. The truly are the bastard children of the ACE. They tend to eat all the "catch all" duties, are too junior to generate traction for change, and generally just get forgotten by most. Good guys, from what I've seen.
gaijin6423
Ask me about ninjas!
The problem with the MACG dets is that it's usually staffed by just Lt's and below. Sometimes the MACG det OIC will be a Captain, but more often than not, it winds up being a DASC Lt who got shafted with it. So far, I've avoided that like the plague, but our Group is notorious for stealing people out from under us at the last minute, which would make me next in line. I'll be in a better position than most ASE OIC's, as I'll probably pin Captain fairly early on in the training cycle, giving me a bit more (not much) rank to through around. Plus, I have no issues whatsoever making sure my guys do NOT get screwed over by other parties. Speaking with my supposed future OIC, he seems pretty gung-ho about going, but I'll believe it when the boats are tied up at the pier after the deployment. (MACG det OIC's have been pulled mid-deployment several times in the last few years.) The real kicker is that there are zero Lt's to pick up the ASE billet if I get bumped up, resulting in yet another double (+) hat role for the DASC guy. But like you said, we MACG folks are used to getting the short end of the deal.