HIRING, FURLOUGHS, BANKRUPTCIES: It was the best of times...it was the worst of times

[Steve Wilkins]

Did you misplace your O2 bottle?

I was speaking in terms of not I personally, but "I" as a stockholder. It is always too much from the stockholders perspective. The more money you put in your pocket means fewer in mine.

Me personally?? I think you guys are well paid but I also understand the number of years, the training, the annual requirements, etc that you had to/have to endure to get to the level you're at.

Just as enlisted guys ask why officers get paid so much, people will always ask why pilots get paid so much. One word. Responsibility.

 

[A4sForever]

Did you misplace your O2 bottle?.......One word. Responsibility.

Nope .... I put gin in mine and took it to the layover hotel ... (just kidding for those of you who "think" these things out too much...)

The rest? I know, I know ... just ragging on you, Steve .....

 

[A4sForever]

Hawaiian Airlines Pilots Blast Trustee's "Success Fee" Request

Hawaiian Airlines Pilots Blast Trustee's "Success Fee" RequestHa

A move by Hawaiian Airlines' former bankruptcy trustee to squeeze millions more dollars from the airline is ludicrous, according to Capt. Kirk McBride, chairman of Hawaiian Airlines pilots' MEC.

Hawaiian Airlines Bankruptcy Trustee Joshua Gotbaum filed a motion in federal bankruptcy court late Monday seeking an $8 million "success fee" now that the airline has exited bankruptcy. Hawaiian emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in June.

"This alleged 'success fee' is an outrage," says Capt. McBride. "It showcases everything that is wrong about the abuse of the bankruptcy process in the airline industry."

"Hawaiian was--and is--a profitable airline. The Hawaiian Airlines bankruptcy happened only because of a corporate strategy to strong-arm aircraft manufacturers. ALPA's President called it a sham bankruptcy--it didn't need to happen. Josh Gotbaum added nothing to the outcome except more delays and a siphoning off of millions of dollars that would otherwise have been invested in making a better airline," Capt. McBride says.

"The Trustee has already been over-compensated for his time here, including free travel and health care, and other lavish corporate perks. This ridiculous fee request represents more than 20 percent of the yearly pilot payroll for our 300 pilots. The bankruptcy court should deny it as another unconscionable raid on the airline's treasury. If anything, we believe Mr. Gotbaum owes Hawaiian Airlines a refund rather than a success fee, based on the fact that the bankruptcy court authorized Mr. Gotbaum's salary as interim pay," Capt. McBride argues.

"Hawaiian Airlines' success in coming out of bankruptcy is due to the millions of dollars that pilots and other employees have forfeited in pay, benefits, work rules, and quality of life. We are confident that the judge will not permit the pockets of every Hawaiian employee to be picked for another undeserved bonus to Mr. Gotbaum. We will still be here, serving the airline and its customers, long after he has packed his bags and left."

Headquartered in Honolulu, Hawaiian Airlines is the 12th-largest U.S. carrier, with 135 daily flights flown by 300 pilots, who operate a fleet of B-717s and B-767s.

 

[Driftwood]

Hopefully Gotbaum won't get away with this, although I wouldn't be totally surprised if he did.... How often are these kinds of additional 'fees' for DOING THEIR JOB strong armed from companies. Do they have that sort of trickle down effect to the other employees that I would imagine it would, or is it passed onto the consumer? Seems a bit...excessive to say the least, especially with the intimate knowledge someone like this should have concerning the state of the industry at present.

 

[A4sForever]

OCTOBER 17, 2005: The U.S. bankruptcy laws change; i.e., if you're going to file bankruptcy -- do it before that date.

So who's next? My guess if Delta. They notified their pilots today ( 8-22-2005) about their cash shortage --- rapidly growing worse --- which is a contractual requirement prior to filing Chapter 11. UAL has already abused the bankruptcy laws to correct years of past mistakes; bankruptcy has also been visited by US Air, Continental, and Hawaiian amongst the surviving longtime carriers.

I think NWA bought itself time with their 18 month advanced planning for the AMFA strike (if sooooooo ..... did they collective bargain in good faith?? Or was it duplicitous rank cynicism ???) . But there is still a long way to go for NWA --- flight attendants and they now want more than the previously agreed concessions from the pilots.

(note: should I split this off and start another "bankruptcy" thread for commercial aviation?? This one is kinda long. Anyone care???)

 

[USN99]

About UAL

I read in USATODAY that UAL had cancelled their pension program recently.

I am wondering if this is indeed true. Got any insight?

 

[A4sForever]

I read in USATODAY that UAL had cancelled their pension program recently. I am wondering if this is indeed true. Got any insight?

This was posted on the Airline/Union "Love/Hate" Relationship thread .... but no problem-o Commandante ... by putting it on this thread, now we've got 'em bracketed. Hope this is what you were looking for ... :

Retirement: The UAL pilots have lost their A-plan .... gone --- zero, nada. Some had many, many dollars in it. Big money. They still have the B-plan ... which is a shadow of the original value of the A-plan ... I cannot get into the contractual differences of the two plans, because I don't know. At one of my former airlines --- we also had an A and a B plan ... the A was where the "real" money was for retirement --- but it wasn't protected like the B-plan, which held much less money .... ditto for UAL.

They are concocting something of a "C-plan" as we speak --- probably going to be more of a 401-K which might appear after UAL emerges from bankruptcy --- assuming it does --- in late summer or this fall (??). The problem is the dollars going in start at "zero" .... not too good for anyone 45-50 years or older with families, bills, houses, and significantly less income.

The old UAL ESOP ??? Your stock??? The famous, now infamous UAL "employee" owned airline??? Busted .... that's what. One of my UAL friends had @ $200,000 worth of stock in UAL several years ago --- even though he came onboard LATE after doing 24 years with Big Blue (retired O-5 and "born-again" in the airlines )--- and he was cashed out of the ESOP @ $2500 ........ That's right. $200,000 down to $2500 ..... it sounds like my success rate at the tables in Reno.

A couple of guys I know are going to fly past age 60 if it is approved by the Feds and they can qualify ... physical standards will be tough and the jury is still out on that one. They basically have lost most of their retirement, must rely on the PBGC for any portion of what they worked years (some decades) for, and they don't have enough money to meet current responsibilities (houses, kids-college, ex-wives ) ) etc. ) without selling and retrenching. Just what you want to do after working for years and now facing retirement.

Soooo .... Pay scales? They are out there if you dig a little --- but I know that one of my 747 First Officers makes more today (even with our pay cuts) in the Whale right seat (@ $146/hour) than a UAL CAPT does on the 767 .... unbelievable for a company where 3-4 years ago the UAL 767 CAPT made @ $240/hour. But then, 3-4 years ago I can also remember everyone in the industry anxiously waiting for their next contract negotiation so all could "bump up" to UAL pay rates. How the worm has turned. Seems like UAL pilots led us up .... and now they are leading us back down.

Hmmmm .... sounds like that's a Ballistic trajectory.... and that usually goes "boom" at the bottom, doesn't it???

 

[USN99]

Your forbearance is appreciated

A4s, I now recall that you had already answered my earlier inquiry. I guess I was expecting some visible sign from my neighbor, who is senior cabin crew, on the pension topic. That's why I was not sure if it had indeed been canceled.

Thanks.

 

[wink]

I guess I was expecting some visible sign from my neighbor, who is senior cabin crew, on the pension topic.

Ya, a deepend furrow of the brow, dark eyes, slouching posture, shouting at 9 year olds riding bicycles by, talking to oneself, sales of boats, second cars, and in state college of sons and daughters are all common visible signs.

 

[A4sForever]

Ya, a deepend furrow of the brow, dark eyes, slouching posture, shouting at 9 year olds riding bicycles by, talking to oneself, sales of boats, second cars, and in state college of sons and daughters are all common visible signs.

HAH!!! You forgot twitching/blinking and staring all night at a loaded pistol on the desktop. Otherwise outstanding ........

 

[wink]

In another thread it was noted that many AA middle and upper management will be getting several million (maybe over $50 million) in bonuses and stock. Of course the emplyees are furious. AA has remained out of bankruptcy. Their employees have take huge cuts like at other carriers and managmenet can take credit for some of the hard work they have done to keep AA out of BK and Wall Street happy with the changes taking place there. But it is an abomanation for huge bonuses to be paid at any airline in BK or lossing money, which AA still is. To his credit, the CEO of AA, is not taking any bonus, or stock options, let alone a $15 million payout like proposed for the United CEO above. It sure would be nice if the managment team at AA followed their CEO's lead.