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[Gatordev]

Curious what you guys who are/were FRS IP's think ..... of the emerging undergraduate syllabus requirements.

I'm sure someone has this number in mind, but it would be interesting to know what the cost comparison would be to moving some of the tactics stuff to the HTs. I'm guessing the delta would be fairly small since most of the tactics stuff happens in the sims. Whether you expose a stud to Hellfire symbology at the HTs or the RAG, it still takes training time. So if you eliminate a few WTTs in the RAG syllabus, that time has to go somewhere. The actual TOFTs in the RAG would need to stay to give the overall mission exposure. Even CAT 2s, who have a decent idea of what needs to happen, are still learning how to manage the shear volume of information that's coming in on their TOFT 10/18 checks, at least on the Romeo side.

As an aside, was talking to a HT IP yesterday at GNV and he mentioned that there was a AW109 at the Fleet Fly-in. I hadn't heard there was a fourth potential airframe before.

 

[ChuckMK23]

@Gatordev I heard the AW109 was there strictly to show off whats possible avionics wise - the TH-119 demonstrator is mostly steam gauges and Leonardo wanted to show off what they had in mind for a PFD/MFD setup and brought down the AW109 as well.

 

[Gatordev]

That makes sense. I was just repeating what the IP told me. It was a short conversation.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Wheels need not apply - same for hinged pax doors.

The TH-XX shall have a skid landing gear
The TH-XX shall provide sliding passenger doors.

The "shall" 's around FMS are interesting as well. SNA's will be learning serious button pushing.

The TH-XX shall incorporate an integrated FMS

No more paper pubs?

The TH-XX shall have the ability to display DOD Flight Information Program (FLIP) instrument approach plates or supplement commercial package that includes military approach plates...

 

[ChuckMK23]

Interesting SAR training profile - with hoist.

 

[Jim123]

I'm dying to see what they have in mind for this syllabus!

It's not such a wild and crazy idea. The T-45 tactics syllabus stage is a lot more thorough- they drop practice bombs on a real range, HTs get to vertrep a 150lb block of concrete around the pattern a few times at KBFE along with the rest of the bare bones tactics stage for the last 20+ years...

The challenge is getting all the different customers to agree on a syllabus (60J, R, S, 65, UH-1, AH-1, 53E×2). Somehow the TACAIR communities all managed it with almost as many (18A, C, D, E/F, G, EA-6B), so I wish we could make it work in rotary wing.

 

[croakerfish]

It's not such a wild and crazy idea. The T-45 tactics syllabus stage is a lot more thorough- they drop practice bombs on a real range, HTs get to vertrep a 150lb block of concrete around the pattern a few times at KBFE along with the rest of the bare bones tactics stage for the last 20+ years...

The challenge is getting all the different customers to agree on a syllabus (60J, R, S, 65, UH-1, AH-1, 53E×2). Somehow the TACAIR communities all managed it with almost as many (18A, C, D, E/F, G, EA-6B), so I wish we could make it work in rotary wing.

That’s what I was thinking, maybe we could finally get something besides helo primary plus NVDs.

 

[Judge Q]

The TH-XX shall have a skid landing gear

Sorry if this is a dumb question but just to the room is there an advantage to starting helo training in a skid helicopter over one with wheels especially considering that by the numbers most people in the HTs are going to something with wheels when they're done? Does this even make a difference to the average person in the seat? I'm just curious about why that's a "shall" requirement.

 

[Jim123]

The skids vs wheels thing doesn't make a lot of difference in training. Wheels are a huge advantage for medium helicopters because you can ground taxi without all the rotorwash from hover taxiing. For a light helicopter, the rotorwash isn't that bad.

You can't do running takeoffs in skid helicopters (actually, you can, unofficially...) but that's the only thing you miss out on in training (and it's not all that different nor difficult, stick-and-rudder-wise, than a max load takeoff from a low hover taxi).

Ground handling is obviously more complicated but nothing the HTs haven't been used to since the Huey was used in training.

The outlying fields are a lot more grass than pavement and the grass surfaces are a little more compatible with skids than the wheels on most wheeled helicopters (small tires, moderate tire pressure). We seen to catch a skid and flip a TH-57 on its side about once every few years or so. I can think of three times during my first HT tour but none from my second. Maybe this skids vs wheels and grass vs pavement question is worth a fresh look...

Cost is probably a wash... skid maintenance is a lot cheaper but the engine and drivetrain wear is greater. Some high order bean counting could probably figure out the difference.

Then again hover taxiing is more hover practice for the students, and we certainly value a steady hover in shipboard ops or a tight LZ.

I feel like Vizzini debating which cup to drink.

:shrugging i dunno emoji goes here:

 

[Judge Q]

I feel like Vizzini debating which cup to drink

There’s poison in both helicopters and I should have spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane power. Got it. Thanks.

 

[Jim123]

There’s poison in both helicopters and I should have spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane power. Got it. Thanks.

"Truly you have a dizzying intellect."

 

[Judge Q]

"Truly you have a dizzying intellect."

{laughs insanely and falls over backwards}

 

[brownshoe]

"Truly you have a dizzying intellect."

I loved that movie! The music and story reminded me of the old Sierra "King's Quest" computer games.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/b49853f4-c0c6-4474-90b4-dd238a66609b

 

[ChuckMK23]

No

Sorry if this is a dumb question but just to the room is there an advantage to starting helo training in a skid helicopter over one with wheels especially considering that by the numbers most people in the HTs are going to something with wheels when they're done? Does this even make a difference to the average person in the seat? I'm just curious about why that's a "shall" requirement.

Not a dumb question - I think @Jim123 nailed it - the entire training infrastructure - OLF's, course rules, ground handling, fueling, people, training, cycle times, etc are all set up under the assumption of skid equipped helos - 50+ years. No need to reinvent the works by moving to a wheeled landing gear.

Plus wheeled landing gear in the sub 7,000 LB class of helo is unusual - I can only think of one (A109). Wheeled gear and the weight and maintenance - not to mention the complexity of retractable gear, only starts to make sense at a certain level of performance and operating environment.

 

[RobLyman]

The Baylander is actually docked in NYC now as a museum. I just drove by it yesterday. https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/Community-Museum/Baylander-IX-514-105079019836144/

It seems the Air Force guy I was talking to probably didn't know better. I asked about it just last week and he told be they had already bought it (Baylander). Given the modifications that were required to make Baylander able to land an Osprey, it makes sense that it is probably a different vessel. If what I heard was correct, even with the deck capable of physically landing a V-22, the certification process to make it legally able to count as a DLQ platform is still a long way from finished.