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[phrogdriver]

But are they behind because of twin-engines or because of going with a -145? I'm not saying the -135 is THE way to go, by any means, but the -135 =/= -145, especially in maintenance, or more specifically near-to-mid life Mx. Yes, I get the long-term Mx is costly.

Honestly I didn't really know what that Twitter response even meant.

The issue isn’t that the 145 is too big. Twins have more complicated transmissions and have twice the drivetrain maintenance.

Rigid heads have big advantages, but are also very fragile. In dynamic maneuvering, slope landings, and with hands-of-meat student pilots, you can easily exceed critical mast angles and damage the head.

Talked to a 135 pilot last week and he said he’d never trust an inexperienced pilot to not break the rotor.

 

[RobLyman]

The issue isn’t that the 145 is too big. Twins have more complicated transmissions and have twice the drivetrain maintenance.

Rigid heads have big advantages, but are also very fragile. In dynamic maneuvering, slope landings, and with hands-of-meat student pilots, you can easily exceed critical mast angles and damage the head.

Talked to a 135 pilot last week and he said he’d never trust an inexperienced pilot to not break the rotor.

Ughh. And Airbus!!! Having a foreign manufacturer involved (at all) in military aircraft maintenance is, at the least, inconvenient. I won't talk about it in detail on here, but a significant...SIGNIFICANT amount of our down time can be traced directly or indirectly to the Army's relationship with Airbus and/or the FAA mandated maintenance practices.

Keep in mind, my POV is as the QC supervisor with 7 CH-47s, 6 HH-60Ms and 4 LUH-72s. I don't work at Ft Rucker with contract maintainers. At our facility the LUHs give the CH-47s a real run for their money as hangar queens. Not because they have a lot of moving parts (like the CH-47) or because they are fragile, but because of the square peg in a round hole aspect of Army LUH maintenance.

 

[Gatordev]

The issue isn’t that the 145 is too big. Twins have more complicated transmissions and have twice the drivetrain maintenance.

Rigid heads have big advantages, but are also very fragile. In dynamic maneuvering, slope landings, and with hands-of-meat student pilots, you can easily exceed critical mast angles and damage the head.

Talked to a 135 pilot last week and he said he’d never trust an inexperienced pilot to not break the rotor.

I'm well aware of the Bell talking points, but none of that answered my question. Why is the Army "behind" after going with the -145? I also never said the -145 was too big. I'm not even sure where that came from.

Again, as I said, I'm not convinced the -135 is the right answer, but I'll offer this: When I first started flying it, I hawked the MMI needle religiously. Then I noticed that it was never really getting anywhere near the 50% mark unless I was doing some kind of uncomfortable sloped landing. There are probably several other times where the rigid head isn't the best idea for studs, but I wonder if more is made of the MMI limits than should be.

 

[phrogdriver]

I'm well aware of the Bell talking points, but none of that answered my question. Why is the Army "behind" after going with the -145? I also never said the -145 was too big. I'm not even sure where that came from.

Again, as I said, I'm not convinced the -135 is the right answer, but I'll offer this: When I first started flying it, I hawked the MMI needle religiously. Then I noticed that it was never really getting anywhere near the 50% mark unless I was doing some kind of uncomfortable sloped landing. There are probably several other times where the rigid head isn't the best idea for studs, but I wonder if more is made of the MMI limits than should be.

That’s my attempt to give objective reasons that they are getting more flight hours out of their remaining 30 year-old 67s than their 5-10 year old 145s.

Open for more ideas, though. I’m sure it’s a fine helicopter, but perhaps not the right option for a trainer.

 

[IKE]

I'm well aware of the Bell talking points, but none of that answered my question. Why is the Army "behind" after going with the -145? I also never said the -145 was too big. I'm not even sure where that came from.

Again, as I said, I'm not convinced the -135 is the right answer, but I'll offer this: When I first started flying it, I hawked the MMI needle religiously. Then I noticed that it was never really getting anywhere near the 50% mark unless I was doing some kind of uncomfortable sloped landing. There are probably several other times where the rigid head isn't the best idea for studs, but I wonder if more is made of the MMI limits than should be.

Granted TPS uses the UH-72 in a few ways that studs shouldn't, but IIRC, running landings were the major maneuver where MMI was an issue (rotor inputs with airframe unable to move in response). It seems like you'd want fresh studs to practice those, a lot.

OTOH, I think we had only one MMI exceedance during our class, and that was a TPUI rapping the cyclic ~1.5 inch forward in flight.

 

[Gatordev]

That’s my attempt to give objective reasons that they are getting more flight hours out of their remaining 30 year-old 67s than their 5-10 year old 145s.

Open for more ideas, though. I’m sure it’s a fine helicopter, but perhaps not the right option for a trainer.

I think we're talking past one another. I'm not arguing that the -72 was a good idea. I'm asking for clarification on what is meant by the statement, "Our Lakota generation is being left behind" in the Twitter post. I understand you didn't write it, but you seem to agree with it. So I'm asking "what" is being left behind? Time to train? Helicopter skills? Systems management?

Granted TPS uses the UH-72 in a few ways that studs shouldn't, but IIRC, running landings were the major maneuver where MMI was an issue (rotor inputs with airframe unable to move in response). It seems like you'd want fresh studs to practice those, a lot.

OTOH, I think we had only one MMI exceedance during our class, and that was a TPUI rapping the cyclic ~1.5 inch forward in flight.

Yeah, and I wish I had more data on how resilient the mast is on running landings on the -135. I can see that being an issue, but so is not stopping in time in the -57 while approaching the access road at Spencer.

All of our engine malfunctions end with a running landing (even with two engines that are making power) and apparently there's some ham-fisted new hires, especially the Chinook guys. So there has to be some resiliency.

 

[phrogdriver]

I can't really defend the "left behind" part of the post, other than to guess that it's a general comment on the quality and amount of training they're getting in the fundamentals relative to those on the TH-67. The poster did seem to be conflating military and civilian training concerns.

 

[Gatordev]

I can't really defend the "left behind" part of the post, other than to guess that it's a general comment on the quality and amount of training they're getting in the fundamentals relative to those on the TH-67. The poster did seem to be conflating military and civilian training concerns.

Gotcha. The internet can be a wonderful thing...until you try to communicate on it.

 

[ChuckMK23]

I know folks at Leonardo and the CNATRA/NAVAIR team was very tight lipped on their evaluation during the demonstration of TH-119 in Philadelphia a few weeks ago....

 

[phrogdriver]

Seven minutes that explain it all.

 

[Jim123]

You were totally intimidating that guy. He tried to knife hand you and his hands did something else instead.

 

[phrogdriver]

U.S. Rep. Martha Roby tours Bell as huge Navy helicopter contract decision looms | Local News | dothaneagle.com

 

[phrogdriver]

Rankings of OEMs. Look who leads among turbine manufacturers.

Vertical Magazine announces results of 2019 airframe & engine OEM surveys

Hélicoptères Guimbal scored the highest marks among airframe manufacturers in Vertical's 2019 airframe and engine OEM survey, while GE Aviation and P&WC tied for first place among engine OEMs.

www.verticalmag.com

 

[Gatordev]

Presidential Helo stuff moved to Presidential Helo thread.

 

[Griz882]

Presidential Helo stuff moved to Presidential Helo thread.

Damn it! I did a search before posting it here.

That's a down for me.