How long do nfo's normally serve?

[Charles Edward]

NFO's are much smarter and should ALWAYS be placed in leadership & supervisory positions over pilots. Pilots get too wrapped around that whole "safety of flight" thing which prevents them from focusing on mission commander and other leadership duties . . . . .

Tongue in cheek response?

 

[Charles Edward]

Only if the pilots and/or Trunk Monkeys involved are unprofessional assholes.

But really - it depends on the airplane how responsibilities and positions are divvied up. The difference between rank authority and positional authority is something that gets discussed a lot during CRM refreshers. In an E-2, for example, it's not at all uncommon to have a LT aircraft commander, LT NFO mission commander, and an NFO Skipper in back sitting ACO because being mission commander requires a lot of preflight mission planning and he's got Skipper shit to do. In theory the CAPC signed for the plane and he's responsible for it. But the Skipper owns the plane and he's also responsible for it. So if there's an issue, ultimately the CAPC will do what the skipper tells him to - but both will have to defend and explain their decision making later. If everyone's being professional, it'll be a collective decision everyone's comfortable with. What won't wash is someone saying "we're doing this because I'm the (x), end of discussion."

Thanks..makes sense.

 

[Flash]

...it depends on the airplane how responsibilities and positions are divvied up. The difference between rank authority and positional authority is something that gets discussed a lot during CRM refreshers....If everyone's being professional, it'll be a collective decision everyone's comfortable with. What won't wash is someone saying "we're doing this because I'm the (x), end of discussion."

In the EP-3 the MC was in charge of pretty much everything except safety of flight if not the aircraft commander, and there were rarely arguments or big disagreements on what was supposed to get done.

The only time I knew of a conflict/disagreement between a MC and an AC was actually in the Prowler, where a FNG JG pilot 'disagreed' with what the DH MC wanted him to do. The pilot was 'corrected' after the flight by the XO, the senior pilot in the squadron.

 

[Uncle Fester]

In the EP-3 the MC was in charge of pretty much everything except safety of flight if not the aircraft commander, and there were rarely arguments or big disagreements on what was supposed to get done.

The only time I knew of a conflict/disagreement between a MC and an AC was actually in the Prowler, where a FNG JG pilot 'disagreed' with what the DH MC wanted him to do. The pilot was 'corrected' after the flight by the XO, the senior pilot in the squadron.

Pretty much how it works in E-2s as well. Usually how it shook out was the MC made the call if it was related to the mission ("Radar's hard down, we're not going to get anything useful done out here without it, let's RTB."), the CAPC made the call if it was safety-of-flight ("That light comes on again, we're out of here.").

I very seldom saw any friction between the front and back ends as far as how to conduct the flight. I think everyone realizes that ultimately they'll have to defend any decisions they make, including deferring to someone else on the crew or back at home plate. LT newly-designated CAPC is iffy about the weather on the route home but not quite at "fuck, no." XO MC wants to press because it's the only up plane and they need it for the flight sked tomorrow. That sort of thing.

 

[Charles Edward]

Pretty much how it works in E-2s as well. Usually how it shook out was the MC made the call if it was related to the mission ("Radar's hard down, we're not going to get anything useful done out here without it, let's RTB."), the CAPC made the call if it was safety-of-flight ("That light comes on again, we're out of here.").

I very seldom saw any friction between the front and back ends as far as how to conduct the flight. I think everyone realizes that ultimately they'll have to defend any decisions they make, including deferring to someone else on the crew or back at home plate. LT newly-designated CAPC is iffy about the weather on the route home but not quite at "fuck, no." XO MC wants to press because it's the only up plane and they need it for the flight sked tomorrow. That sort of thing.

Thanks..apologies for the ignorance, but what are MC, AC, and CAPC (pilot in command?), respectively? Is RTB mean return to base? Thanks.

 

[zippy]

Is it awkward when an NFO outranks a pilot in the same aircraft or even squadron? I've read that a senior NFO often gets paired with a junior pilot and vice versa. However, isn't the aviator always the "pilot in command"? Does this ever cause friction/problems, subtle or otherwise between an NFO in a command position and pilots under him/her? Thanks.

It's not usually very awkward. Depending on the platform there's a designated mission commander... Sometimes it's the NFO sometimes and sometimes the pilot holds both positions... Safety of flight is always the responsibility of the Aircraft Commander and that trumps mission completion concerns all but extreme circumstances. Mostly the good Pilot and good NFOs are working together to complete the mission/ and flight and on the same page so the safety of flight trump card doesn't usually have to be pulled... Usually the NFO is onboard with heading home early if there's a situation where the mission can't be completed safely.

Mutual respect is the name of the game, as well as having an interest in what the other crew position is doing to complete the mission. Most Pilots and NFOs learn this and mature enough professionally to the point they work fine together. There are always exceptions in every squadron.

 

[Flash]

...Usually the NFO is onboard with heading home early if there's a situation where the mission can't be completed safely...

We seemed to have the opposite problem with some pilots, "I am going to pull the power back a little to squeeze out an extra 0.2-0.3 for my logbook". 'Yeah!' said no back end crew....ever.

 

[zippy]

We seemed to have the opposite problem with some pilots, "I am going to pull the power back a little to squeeze out an extra 0.2-0.3 for my logbook". 'Yeah!' said no back end crew....ever.

When the alternative is preflighting is 50hrs of preflighting bounce birds on weekends to get those last 3hrs of pilot time to make The PPT tracker turn green, padding your transit times on det is a 2 above in headwork.... And has become an acceptanble community practice, especially when the commodore threatens to cancel holiday leave for the entire wing if his pilots don't all make mins for the quarter by early December ( yes that has happened).

I'm sure things used to be different in VQ so this dude probably had airline, or nom packets in mind doing it.

I've also had an NFO O-4 object to heading home at the conclusion of a TF just to fly around in circles for a couple more hours because he didn't want to Land early on a weekend fly day where Everyone got to go home sooner the sooner we landed.

Penguins exist in both designators and so do hours hounds...

 

[Flash]

When the alternative is preflighting is 50hrs of preflighting bounce birds on weekends to get those last 3hrs of pilot time to make The PPT tracker turn green, padding your transit times on det is a 2 above in headwork.... I'm sure things used to be different in VQ so this dude probably had airline, or nom packets in mind doing it....Penguins exist in both designators and so do hours hounds...

Dude, it was a joke! Jeez....

Yes, a few pilots did it in VQ coming back from missions where the transit time could span hours and we mercilessly made fun of them because 10-20 extra hours ain't going to be the make or break anyone for an airline job. So no it wasn't about meeting any sort of tracker, just a few dudes being difficult.

Ironically that is what the argument between the DH MC and the JG pilot was about in my Prowler squadron. The JG learned his lesson the hard way after that flight.

 

[zippy]

Well that's just dumb. Never argue one on one with a hinge on your squadron over something arbitrary... 95% of the time the front office I going to side with them and the hinges create the JO ranking lists during FITREP season...

If it's a hinge over the Internet on the other hand...

 

[Renegade One]

I.e...friction happened about half the time?

Sometimes. Depending entirely on front office leadership, some of the RIOs in squadrons that transitioned from F-8s to F-4 had a VERY tough time, regardless of rank.

 

[Charles Edward]

Speaking of carrier COs, if their background is either aviator or NFOs, how do they qualify for carrier CO if they do not have shipdriver training (I am making an assumption here). If selected for CO or XO, do they receive some sort of ship driving training at that point? Or, do SWOs actually drive the carrier while the aviator/NFO CO/XO have overall command of the carrier? Thanks.

 

[kmac]

Somewhat of a thread jack... while really going back to the original post... Yesterday my boss retired, after 35 years in the Navy with most of that time spent as an NFO. The speaker at his retirement was the Air Boss. So for the original question, how long do NFOs typically serve? It varies quite a bit.

As for my real point, on staff I have to think about who is an NFO and who is an aviator. The distinction is so meaningless that it reminds me of the academy vs ROTC vs OCS distinction. The latter seemed to matter in API and became irrelevant after that. Do others share that experience or have I just had the one-off?
/end threadjack

 

[Brett327]

Somewhat of a thread jack... while really going back to the original post... Yesterday my boss retired, after 35 years in the Navy with most of that time spent as an NFO. The speaker at his retirement was the Air Boss. So for the original question, how long do NFOs typically serve? It varies quite a bit.

As for my real point, on staff I have to think about who is an NFO and who is an aviator. The distinction is so meaningless that it reminds me of the academy vs ROTC vs OCS distinction. The latter seemed to matter in API and became irrelevant after that. Do others share that experience or have I just had the one-off?
/end threadjack

You're exactly right.

 

[robav8r]

On staff I have to think about who is an NFO and who is an aviator. The distinction is so meaningless that it reminds me of the academy vs ROTC vs OCS distinction.

Exactly on point . . .