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NEWS If War Comes, Will the U.S. Navy Be Prepared?

nodropinufaka

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
It’s not a hill to die on but rather blatant hypocrisy from senior officers charged with NJP authority in this situation.

I can guarantee almost everyone drinks beers and golfs or something along those lines. And one cop can ruin someones career and life without any chance for explanation or recourse from service members
 
P

Pags

N/A
pilot
nodropinufaka said:
It’s not a hill to die on but rather blatant hypocrisy from senior officers charged with NJP authority in this situation.

I can guarantee almost everyone drinks beers and golfs or something along those lines. And one cop can ruin someones career and life without any chance for explanation or recourse from service members
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That's not hypocrisy. That's them doing their job and them either being lucky or ensuring that they do the right thing and not get over served or if they do find another way home. They know the rules of the game and that if they get a DUI they'll face the same career implications.

A bad run in with the law can ruin many careers. Thats why many professionals mind the straight and narrow.
 
Spekkio

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
nodropinufaka said:
How would have the command proved that if not for the illegal stop?
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"The command" doesn't have to prove anything. You seem stuck on this.

A sailor could walk into the COSR and say "I saw SN Timmy drive shitfaced last night." If the PIO finds that report credible, it would be enough to take SN Timmy to mast, despite the fact that this most likely wouldn't hold up in a court.
 
nodropinufaka

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
Spekkio said:
"The command" doesn't have to prove anything. You seem stuck on this.

A sailor could walk into the COSR and say "I saw SN Timmy drive shitfaced last night." If the PIO finds that report credible, it would be enough to take SN Timmy to mast, despite the fact that this most likely wouldn't hold up in a court.
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and you find that okay?

Actually great example. If SN Timmy went to his Department head and said he saw the captain drive home from golf course bar and was drunk. Would the investigation be the same and it be handled the same way?
 
P

Pags

N/A
pilot
nodropinufaka said:
and you find that okay?

Actually great example. If SN Timmy went to his Department head and said he saw the captain drive home from golf course bar and was drunk. Would the investigation be the same and it be handled the same way?
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Whether or not we find it ok doesn't matter a lick. These are the laws of the Navy.

To your example: plenty of COs have been fired for less.
 
ABMD

ABMD

Bullets don't fly without Supply
nodropinufaka said:
It’s not a hill to die on but rather blatant hypocrisy from senior officers charged with NJP authority in this situation.

I can guarantee almost everyone drinks beers and golfs or something along those lines. And one cop can ruin someones career and life without any chance for explanation or recourse from service members
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How much drinking are we talking about here? According to this site, a 200lb male, drinking 2 beers will have a 0.00 BAC after 2 hours. BAC has to reach .08 for a DUI (depending on state). So it's quite possible someone playing golf and drinking can get in their car and drive home completely fine with a 0.00 BAC.
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nittany03

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
nodropinufaka said:
A DUI is a criminal offense.

You called a pretextual stop a technicality which it definitely is not. It’s a violation of your 4th amendment.
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NJP is not a criminal proceeding, and the Fourth Amendment means fuck-all; the evidence just has to be relevant in the eyes of the CO. For the hundredth time, the evidence was barred at trial because THAT was a criminal proceeding. These are not the same thing. It doesn't matter what you WANT the Fourth Amendment to mean; it matters what the courts and the JAGs have said it means. And evidence inadmissible at a criminal trial is totally fair game at an NJP hearing because NJP doesn't carry a criminal conviction. The only thing a commander can't do is violate privilege such as spousal privilege or clergy-penitent privilege. Go look it up in Big Red, the Manual for Courts-Martial, or the Commander's Legal Handbook.

It's honestly embarrassing to have to explain something this basic to someone who has any appreciable time in uniform.
 
nodropinufaka

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
ABMD said:
How much drinking are we talking about here? According to this site, a 200lb male, drinking 2 beers will have a 0.00 BAC after 2 hours. BAC has to reach .08 for a DUI (depending on state). So it's quite possible someone planning golf and drinking can get in their car and drive home completely fine with a 0.00 BAC.
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That’s my entire point.

You can be bone sober and all it takes is a cop who decides to drag you in and you’re going to be fighting an uphill battle trying to prove otherwise to both leadership and civilian authorities.

You’ll def get reassigned pending investigation, possibly your clearance getting suspended, possibly have to attend DAPA, etc.

And in some scenarios the CO takes you to a mast and you have zero chance to prove you were sober cause the standard of evidence isn’t the same.
 
S

SELRES_AMDO

Well-Known Member
Brett327 said:
I don't disagree that there could be room for some nuance, but that's not how the law sees it, nor is it the DoN policy. The real thrust of my point is that using DUI as an example of zero-defect mindset gone awry is a horrible position from which to argue that point. There are much better examples, as have been discussed in this thread.

Having a beer then driving home isn't a DUI. Having several beers over the course of an afternoon of golfing isn't a DUI. Among your many talents, I presume that measuring someone's BAC with your eyes is not one of them. Have you ever been to a DUI mast for a Sailor? Have you ever discussed with an officer with Art 15 authority how they approach a DUI case for one of their Sailors? Who are these senior officers you're referring to that drink and drive so frequently and blatantly? Are these people you actually know, or people you presume to exist due to some misplaced belief that "the man" is out there keeping you down by being "total hypocrites?"

I'm genuinely curious about your actual experience in this.
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Ok. I agree with you. I don't think DUIs are a good example. But at the same time I don't agree with the Navy's defacto policy of ending anyone who gets a DUI.

The senior Officers are my peers and personal friends. I don't have some weird belief that they're holding me down. I just don't agree with Senior Officers drinking alcohol and then driving when I know some of them have NJP'd sailors for the same offense. One friend told me "Our hands are tied and there isn't much we can do when we are the CO and someone gets a DUI". Ok, fine. That's just the way the game is played but I don't need to agree with it.

And yes, I've been to DUI mast and have discussed DUIs with personal friends who are/were COs.
 
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