NEWS If War Comes, Will the U.S. Navy Be Prepared?

[nittany03]

I understand the reasoning for NJP and don’t necessarily disagree with the reasoning for it.

Just kind of find it unfair for Captains to punish Sailors in instances of no evidence of wrongdoing.

And to @Spekkio point. I think it’s a totality of circumstances type of thing.

There is that old saying in criminal justice regarding crime and cops “you might beat the rap but you won’t beat the ride”

Meaning you may very well get off later but your life still going to be messed up and you’re still gonna be dealing with it.

All it takes is one cop having a bad day when you’re on the way home from golf and them wanting to abuse his power and charging you and your entire career and life ruined. You’ll be climbing an uphill battle. That’s why I think it should always be viewed differently.

Ive seen that exact scenario play out on someone and the guy didn’t even have his BAC taken or a field sobriety test and the stop was an invalid stop. But the Officer still took the guy to jail. Once the prosecutors got it they dropped it immediately for the stop being invalid and lack of evidence. The guys life was still a mess cause he had to deal with the Navy punishing him for it before it even went thru court

If someone really feels there's "no evidence," or not enough evidence, as mentioned, the remedy for that is to demand trial by court-martial.

Or go to Defense Services Office and ask a JAG for help pre-mast, or for help drafting an NJP appeal.

Or call the IG hotline and make a complaint.

Or file an Article 138 against the CO.

Or call your Member of Congress.

 

[Spekkio]

The whole “no one lives on base anymore” part was a bit “old man yells at cloud.” Let’s see, you can get a place right away out in town or wait months for base housing while reading articles about what a mold-infested mess the management companies are turning them into.

The article implies that active duty sailors living in civilian housing is a problem because of course it is; it makes no mention of the issues you point out or that the move to civilian housing is driven by higher pay / benefits that allow sailors to afford higher quality properties.

 

[Spekkio]

If someone really feels there's "no evidence," or not enough evidence, as mentioned, the remedy for that is to demand trial by court-martial.

This, like, isn't a thing.

 

[nodropinufaka]

If someone really feels there's "no evidence," or not enough evidence, as mentioned, the remedy for that is to demand trial by court-martial.

Or go to Defense Services Office and ask a JAG for help pre-mast, or for help drafting an NJP appeal.

Or call the IG hotline and make a complaint.

Or file an Article 138 against the CO.

Or call your Member of Congress.

Sure.

But my point was more to the fact the onus is going to be on you to do all these things.

And none of those are going to help you in the immediate aftermath (or maybe at all) following an accusation. You’re still going to be pulled from your job, clearance suspended, timing thrown off, etc.


All it takes is one police officer who decides to take you in and your whole life gets turned upside down when you’re innocent and the cop violated your rights.

Also the last guy I saw who took the CM option- the Skipper decided he’d just admin sep him instead because he only had 3 years in.

 

[Pags]

Sure.

But my point was more to the fact the onus is going to be on you to do all these things.

And none of those are going to help you in the immediate aftermath (or maybe at all) following an accusation. You’re still going to be pulled from your job, clearance suspended, timing thrown off, etc.


All it takes is one police officer who decides to take you in and your whole life gets turned upside down when you’re innocent and the cop violated your rights.

Also the last guy I saw who took the CM option- the Skipper decided he’d just admin sep him instead because he only had 3 years in.

Or you could make good choices and not drink to the point of risking it, have a DD, or Uber/Lyft it home. You know, being an adult. This is stupid hill to die on.

And I'll ask again, what's the link between DUIs and being ready for the next war?

 

[nodropinufaka]

Or you could make good choices and not drink to the point of risking it, have a DD, or Uber/Lyft it home. You know, being an adult. This is stupid hill to die on.

I just said my example was that a lot of people go drink a couple beers over an afternoon of golf or a glass of wine with dinner.

Agree. If you’re heading out into town for the night to get tore up with your friends then def take an Uber or Lyft.

But some of the dui cases aren’t always black or white and deserve further review then throwing the book at them first chance.

You haven’t had beers golfing then drove home? Or had a few beers at the ibar with your friends on a Friday afternoon with pizza then went home? Or had a wine with dinner with your wife?

All it takes is the wrong cop and even if you’re legally sober.

 

[Spekkio]

All it takes is one police officer who decides to take you in and your whole life gets turned upside down when you’re innocent and the cop violated your rights.

Dude, let's start with the assumption that your mk1 mod 0 CO isn't out to mast and adsep his sailors and officers.

The NJP investigation process is an independent process headed by someone other than the CO. In the hypothetical case you are presenting - a bad cop roughs up a 'perp' who is actually innocent - the evidence of this would reveal itself during the NJP investigation and the CO would dismiss the case. Not to mention that oftentimes a CO will let the civil process play out prior to making a decision on whether to take the person to mast.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Dude, let's start with the assumption that your mk1 mod 0 CO isn't out to mast and adsep his sailors and officers.

The NJP investigation process is an independent process headed by someone other than the CO. In the hypothetical case you are presenting - a bad cop roughs up a 'perp' who is actually innocent - the evidence of this would reveal itself during the NJP investigation and the CO would dismiss the case. Not to mention that oftentimes a CO will let the civil process play out prior to making a decision on whether to take the person to mast.

Literally happened the exact opposite. This case isn’t hypothetical. It actually happened.

Guy got charged with DUI. Was thrown out of court by the prosecutors due to invalid stop by the police officer. All charges dropped by prosecutors.

Then he got taken to Mast by the CO and the CO said he decided based on what evidence he had available that the member was still likely under the influence because he was pulled over leaving a bar. Also it was 3pm where they were having a beer after work. Not midnight or anything crazy.

Literally no BAC done, No field sobriety test, and dropped charges and the individual still gets NJP.

So in that situation shouldn’t the individual be given the chance to redeem himself and prove he is still valuable to the Navy?

 

[Spekkio]

So in that situation shouldn’t the individual be given the chance to redeem himself and prove he is still valuable to the Navy?

What was the result of the appeal?

 

[nodropinufaka]

What was the result of the appeal?

Upheld. I didn’t think any appeals actually ever worked? Couldn’t imagine an Admiral reversing a Capts decision.

This happened to him as an ENS but he did go on to become a good officer and recently made LCDR and screened for his milestone positions.

Not after a nightmarish amount of paperwork to just stay in the Navy and then another round of bureaucratic hell to promote to LT.

 

[Pags]

Upheld. I didn’t think any appeals actually ever worked? Couldn’t imagine an Admiral reversing a Capts decision.

This happened to him as an ENS but he did go on to become a good officer and recently made LCDR and screened for his milestone positions.

Not after a nightmarish amount of paperwork to just stay in the Navy and then another round of bureaucratic hell to promote to LT.

So....not a zero defect navy then huh? Sucks that a guy has to try hard to have a successful career.

 

[nodropinufaka]

So....not a zero defect navy then huh? Sucks that a guy has to try hard to have a successful career.

Well it kind of was a zero defect cause the Skipper punished him unfairly for a charge that was dropped and it wasted 2 years of the guys life when it went through the pers process.

 

[Spekkio]

Upheld. I didn’t think any appeals actually ever worked? Couldn’t imagine an Admiral reversing a Capts decision.

This happened to him as an ENS but he did go on to become a good officer and recently made LCDR and screened for his milestone positions.

First, I've seen NJPs overturned. So what you're saying is that after an independent investigation the PIO recommended NJP, the CO administered NJP, and then after a review of the available evidence, another person found that there was sufficient evidence to take the officer to mast.

At what point do you concede that although your buddy got the legal charges dropped due to issues with due process, he actually did the thing that he was taken to NJP for doing?

Secondly, your shining example of someone's 'life being ruined' in the Navy is about to put on O-4 after he was taken to NJP as an Ensign?

Is this going to be like your 'work experience' where, when asked, you just happened to have done a job relevant to every opinion you have on life? You're all over the place, man.

 

[nodropinufaka]

First, I've seen NJPs overturned. So what you're saying is that after an independent review of the available evidence, another person found that there was sufficient evidence to take the officer to mast.

Secondly, your shining example of someone's 'life being ruined' in the Navy is about to put on O-4 after he was taken to NJP as an Ensign?

You're all over the place, man.

Well the dude spent 2-3 years of his life trying to get back on track and on legal hold. Was separated from his community and had to find another one.

My only point on DUIs is that it isn’t all black/white. And not all are the same.

Like I said. Most of here would admit we have had a few beers at golf and drove home.

All it takes it the wrong interaction with an officer and you end up like my buddy or worst since he was just an ENS at the time and could recover.

 

[Spekkio]

All it takes it the wrong interaction with an officer and you end up like my buddy or worst since he was just an ENS at the time and could recover.

I think that you have a hard time separating the fact that your buddy was able to get his criminal charges dropped from whether he did the act in the first place.