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I'm at my wit's end concerning OCS and would appreciate insight.
- Thread starter Ribwich
- Start date
I'm missing my only sister's wedding for OCS in September. You must be ready to make sacrifices... as it sounds, this won't be the last time we miss important life events. She understood.TL;DR : Got accepted into OCS and the Naval Aviator Program. The class dates will make me miss my best friends wedding. What to do? What should I make sure is in my contract if everything works out well?
Okay, so this will be a long one. I started getting my packet together for OCS around January and recently got the all clear back from the medical exam to be an Aviator. I mentioned when I was starting this whole process that my best friend's wedding was December 21st and that I swore to him I would be in it. My recruiter said he understood and would work around that fact. After finally getting the all clear last week, the next available dates for OCS with open spots would be September 30th or some time in October. With a 12 week course, this would overshoot the wedding date. When I raised a concern about this, my recruiter said something along the lines of, "Well you said you wanted to go in September, if you delay it too much it will look bad." Now, I did request a date in September, but I requested the date of September 1st (the idea being it would give me enough time to enjoy holidays and the wedding before going down to Pensacola). I would rather deal with all the Hell and ice of a class in January if it would let me keep my oath, but I fear losing my slot. If it came down to it and I just went on the 30th, I do have some concerns regarding contracts. I want to know what some of you put in yours/what you wished you put in yours. I'm also curious if I have any bargaining rights at all in this process seeing as how I applied to the program and this isn't an enlistment thing. I read I won't be able to have my student loans paid for by the Navy through the LRP because I'm going through the officer program. I think they justify this by saying you get paid more, so you don't get repayment options. Is this something you could get put in a contract or do I just deal with it?
Thanks in advance for reading this wall-o-text. I'm looking forward to your replies.
I have missed several weddings. But they all ended in divorce. If you think it is hard telling your friend you will miss his wedding, wait till you have to tell your wife you will miss:
You kid being born
Anniversary
Birthdays
Christmas
Funerals
(insert any major event in your life here).
You might not miss any of these, but I have missed 4 out of 5 on this short list. Go to OCS, hope the Christmas leave thing works out and enjoy the best job you will ever had (your mileage may vary).
You kid being born
Anniversary
Birthdays
Christmas
Funerals
(insert any major event in your life here).
You might not miss any of these, but I have missed 4 out of 5 on this short list. Go to OCS, hope the Christmas leave thing works out and enjoy the best job you will ever had (your mileage may vary).
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
I've missed everything on Flying Low's list at least twice except the births.
Guess what, when you get in the "real world" things like that happen.
Sent from my PH44100 using Tapatalk 2
Guess what, when you get in the "real world" things like that happen.
Sent from my PH44100 using Tapatalk 2
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Not to sound harsh, but suck it up buttercup! It's time for you to take a big gulp from the cup of reality. In addition to that - you need to make a choice. The opportunity of a lifetime, or your friend's wedding? In case you didn't notice, the military is in the process of downsizing - and the Navy can be VERY selective. When you start demanding conditions - they can just move on to the next guy who doesn't. You're playing with fire.
We've all missed important things in our life. I've missed the funeral of a good friend, multiple weddings, my wife's birthday, my family's birthdays, Thanksgiving, etc... I celebrated my 30th birthday on the ship, my 31st birthday in Iraq, and my 32nd birthday on the ship. You know what though? I don't regret it, and neither do the people in my life. Because we all understand that this is what it means to serve. You (and your friends and family) sacrifice a lot, for the greater good of the country.
My final thoughts - I think your friend will understand. If not, your friend is probably a little self-centered and you will drift apart after you go out on the adventure that is military service. Additionally, I think you're an idiot to not go to OCS at the first available opportunity. This really is your one chance.
We've all missed important things in our life. I've missed the funeral of a good friend, multiple weddings, my wife's birthday, my family's birthdays, Thanksgiving, etc... I celebrated my 30th birthday on the ship, my 31st birthday in Iraq, and my 32nd birthday on the ship. You know what though? I don't regret it, and neither do the people in my life. Because we all understand that this is what it means to serve. You (and your friends and family) sacrifice a lot, for the greater good of the country.
My final thoughts - I think your friend will understand. If not, your friend is probably a little self-centered and you will drift apart after you go out on the adventure that is military service. Additionally, I think you're an idiot to not go to OCS at the first available opportunity. This really is your one chance.
"This sailor has stood the watch" has taken a whole new meaning since I have been in. I missed graduations, sibling's engagements, my own wedding and first year of marriage (deployment). As far as tough calls shortly before OCS, I found out before I shipped out one of my parents was hiding their cancer diagnosis because they thought enough of me to know OCS was too important for me to stay behind and watch over them. It certainly made the 13 week adventure at Newport extra painful.
At OCS others missed births and all sorts of things. The DIs did a good job driving the point home stoically.
Yeah TC, this doesn't sound like a friend at all if this is even remotely an issue.
At OCS others missed births and all sorts of things. The DIs did a good job driving the point home stoically.
Yeah TC, this doesn't sound like a friend at all if this is even remotely an issue.
Usually not a fan of dogpiling, but in the case of this thread, it's warranted. If you've got thin skin or if you're easily offended, skip to the next post.
Ribwich, your post reeks of someone who has a strong sense of entitlement. You're going to reply and argue that somehow you don't, but you can save your breath. You've already shown your hand. You think the Navy owes you something. Allow me to join the chorus of those who are telling you that the Navy doesn't owe you a damn thing.
Here's some free advice: Prior to Navy OCS, you have exactly two choices: 1. Lose the sense of entitlement, or 2. Don't go into the Navy.
As others have pointed out, the Navy does not need you. Period. There is no shortage of highly-qualified, highly-trained Aviators who have already proven themselves that are being RIF'd right now. Their lives are being turned upside down, their careers shortened, and their families (yes, their wives/husbands/children) are being greatly affected. Guess what? These proven professionals are being RIF'd, in part, to make room for you...and the thousands of other applicants the Navy has to choose from every single day. The thousands of equally (or better) qualified applicants who would give the left parts of their anatomy to take that 30 Sep OCS date. Simply put, if you don't want to accept the 30 Sep date, you don't have to. The Navy will fill that 30 Sep slot...and you can pretty much count on the Navy not calling you back at a later date.
Why?
Your recruiter is a nice guy. He got you what you wanted. However, that's not good enough for you. Incredible. Have you ever heard of the old phrase that "Beggars can't be choosers?" In the application process, you are the beggar. You want something the Navy has. Since there are hundreds/thousands of applicants that won't be picky about their OCS date, the Navy will have no problem filling that quota with applicants who will sign/ship on the Navy's terms. As noted above, the Navy is the one "negotiating" from a position of strength - not you. (I say "negotiating," because it's not really a negotiation...the Navy has an OCS/aviation quota for 30 Sep up for grabs. They have offered it to you. If you don't accept it, they will give it to the next person in line. The person who won't try to dictate any terms.) Like we've said over and over again, the Navy can afford to be picky in 2012.
Hate to break it to you, but Navy officers aren't unionized. There are no bargaining rights in the military. You are a volunteer, serving at the pleasure of the President. The Navy dictates the conditions, and you accept them...or AMF! If you're lucky, if the timing is right, and if your performance warrants, the Navy will offer you "choices" at certain points in your career. You may get to choose between a small handful of available billets, duty stations, etc. (Please note: This process exists after you've proven yourself. Don't delude yourself: You, the OCS applicant, have not "proven yourself" yet.) You don't demand a damn thing when the detailer offers you orders, and you will ultimately go wherever they tell you and do whatever they tell you to do. Again, if you don't like what's offered, and you've fulfilled the terms of your contract (in other words, your obligated service in exchange for your training), you're free to leave...and the Navy is free to kick you to the curb if you think you can stay.
And, while I'm at it, cry me a river about missing a wedding ceremony. I'm by no means the saltiest member on the board, but I am well-established on the back side of my career. As I close in on retirement, here is the very short list of milestones I've missed (many numerous times) due to my military service and its training/deployment cycle:
-Christmas (in fact, I've seen my family for Christmas exactly 3 times since I enlisted in the mid-90s. Quite sobering for someone who was with my family for the previous 18 Christmases.)
-Both of my sisters' graduations...from high school and beyond.
-Both of my sisters' weddings...and the birth of their children.
-My wedding anniversary.
-Wife's birthday.
-Wife's graduation from a significant, lengthy career training event.
-Brother- and Sister-in-Laws' high school, college, and graduate school graduations.
-Too many weddings/funerals/birthdays of friends and family members to count.
-Oh - one of the events that I'll never forget: I was on the flightline, after flying off the boat after a long deployment, when my copilot met his son for the first time. His son was nearly eight months old. (While that was a significant event for me to witness, it is an event that repeats itself hundreds of times every year in our military.)
Alright, I've wasted enough 'trons on this subject. Ribwich, if you haven't figured it out by now, nobody here cares that you're at you're "wit's end" with your OCS ship date. Either take the date you've been offered, or leave it. The Navy will ensure that the right person fills your quota. If you choose not to go, I wish you a great life. If you choose to go to OCS, I wish you all the best...but you'd better re-calibrate that attitude of yours most riki-tik.
Ribwich said:Got accepted into OCS and the Naval Aviator Program. The class dates will make me miss my best friends wedding. What to do? What should I make sure is in my contract if everything works out well?
Ribwich, your post reeks of someone who has a strong sense of entitlement. You're going to reply and argue that somehow you don't, but you can save your breath. You've already shown your hand. You think the Navy owes you something. Allow me to join the chorus of those who are telling you that the Navy doesn't owe you a damn thing.
Here's some free advice: Prior to Navy OCS, you have exactly two choices: 1. Lose the sense of entitlement, or 2. Don't go into the Navy.
As others have pointed out, the Navy does not need you. Period. There is no shortage of highly-qualified, highly-trained Aviators who have already proven themselves that are being RIF'd right now. Their lives are being turned upside down, their careers shortened, and their families (yes, their wives/husbands/children) are being greatly affected. Guess what? These proven professionals are being RIF'd, in part, to make room for you...and the thousands of other applicants the Navy has to choose from every single day. The thousands of equally (or better) qualified applicants who would give the left parts of their anatomy to take that 30 Sep OCS date. Simply put, if you don't want to accept the 30 Sep date, you don't have to. The Navy will fill that 30 Sep slot...and you can pretty much count on the Navy not calling you back at a later date.
Why?
Your recruiter is a nice guy. He got you what you wanted. However, that's not good enough for you. Incredible. Have you ever heard of the old phrase that "Beggars can't be choosers?" In the application process, you are the beggar. You want something the Navy has. Since there are hundreds/thousands of applicants that won't be picky about their OCS date, the Navy will have no problem filling that quota with applicants who will sign/ship on the Navy's terms. As noted above, the Navy is the one "negotiating" from a position of strength - not you. (I say "negotiating," because it's not really a negotiation...the Navy has an OCS/aviation quota for 30 Sep up for grabs. They have offered it to you. If you don't accept it, they will give it to the next person in line. The person who won't try to dictate any terms.) Like we've said over and over again, the Navy can afford to be picky in 2012.
Hate to break it to you, but Navy officers aren't unionized. There are no bargaining rights in the military. You are a volunteer, serving at the pleasure of the President. The Navy dictates the conditions, and you accept them...or AMF! If you're lucky, if the timing is right, and if your performance warrants, the Navy will offer you "choices" at certain points in your career. You may get to choose between a small handful of available billets, duty stations, etc. (Please note: This process exists after you've proven yourself. Don't delude yourself: You, the OCS applicant, have not "proven yourself" yet.) You don't demand a damn thing when the detailer offers you orders, and you will ultimately go wherever they tell you and do whatever they tell you to do. Again, if you don't like what's offered, and you've fulfilled the terms of your contract (in other words, your obligated service in exchange for your training), you're free to leave...and the Navy is free to kick you to the curb if you think you can stay.
And, while I'm at it, cry me a river about missing a wedding ceremony. I'm by no means the saltiest member on the board, but I am well-established on the back side of my career. As I close in on retirement, here is the very short list of milestones I've missed (many numerous times) due to my military service and its training/deployment cycle:
-Christmas (in fact, I've seen my family for Christmas exactly 3 times since I enlisted in the mid-90s. Quite sobering for someone who was with my family for the previous 18 Christmases.)
-Both of my sisters' graduations...from high school and beyond.
-Both of my sisters' weddings...and the birth of their children.
-My wedding anniversary.
-Wife's birthday.
-Wife's graduation from a significant, lengthy career training event.
-Brother- and Sister-in-Laws' high school, college, and graduate school graduations.
-Too many weddings/funerals/birthdays of friends and family members to count.
-Oh - one of the events that I'll never forget: I was on the flightline, after flying off the boat after a long deployment, when my copilot met his son for the first time. His son was nearly eight months old. (While that was a significant event for me to witness, it is an event that repeats itself hundreds of times every year in our military.)
Alright, I've wasted enough 'trons on this subject. Ribwich, if you haven't figured it out by now, nobody here cares that you're at you're "wit's end" with your OCS ship date. Either take the date you've been offered, or leave it. The Navy will ensure that the right person fills your quota. If you choose not to go, I wish you a great life. If you choose to go to OCS, I wish you all the best...but you'd better re-calibrate that attitude of yours most riki-tik.
exNavyOffRec
Well-Known Member
I will count myself lucky in that in over 20 years of service I never missed a kid being born or missed a Christmas, now I have taken duty on Christmas to help out people, but that was my choice.
A person that is in the military and gets to make one of those items on the list should count themselves as lucky, as there are many others that don't.
I feel for KBayDog's copilot, while I did see my daughter born I left a few days later, when I returned she didn't want to be held by me as she didn't know me.
A person that is in the military and gets to make one of those items on the list should count themselves as lucky, as there are many others that don't.
I feel for KBayDog's copilot, while I did see my daughter born I left a few days later, when I returned she didn't want to be held by me as she didn't know me.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
As one of the aforementioned persons who has been RIFd and had their life turned upside down.. I want to choke slam you and then beat you with a pipewrench.
I had to drive 1400 miles non stop to make it to OCS because my graduation and report date were 2 days apart. And that's a minor thing in scope.
(now summoning the TRA gods..)
I had to drive 1400 miles non stop to make it to OCS because my graduation and report date were 2 days apart. And that's a minor thing in scope.
(now summoning the TRA gods..)
Ribwich- The gents here are more evolved, progressive, and sensitive than the above posts reflect. "IF" you head to OCS, make sure to share your frustration with "the system" immediately with your Drill Instructor. Don't let him talk over you. That could be interpreted as a sign of weakness. Let us know how things progress, AW Blog etc., whatever.
(Nothing to see here. He's not going to the wedding. Carry on.)
(Nothing to see here. He's not going to the wedding. Carry on.)
This is why I love AW! Not only have you provided ribwich with a healthy dose of reality to inform his decision, I am hopeful you all have made an adjustment to the quality of Naval Aviation. Either ribwich reads this thread and is horrified by the ruthlessness of the posts and decides he doesn't want to be associated with a Navy populated by such people, or on learning of the sacrifice required of being a Navy Officer decides it isn't worth it, or, just maybe, on reading all this it sets his mind straight and he goes off to OCS far better prepared for the reality of the Navy. Either way, scared off or attitude properly adjusted and on his way to OCS., the Navy will be better off.
Who the hell thinks they can negotiate ANYTHING in a enlistment contract. I have spent a lot of years in and supporting rrecruiting. Never have I heard such a notion. Having that expectation alone is a huge warning sign.
Who the hell thinks they can negotiate ANYTHING in a enlistment contract. I have spent a lot of years in and supporting rrecruiting. Never have I heard such a notion. Having that expectation alone is a huge warning sign.
"You're baad!" ~Chris Farley
Somewhat off topic, but why is the Navy "laying off" (is that the right word?) highly-qualified, highly-trained aviators to make room for inexperienced, untrained applicants? Also, why would there be aviation career continuation pay (ACCP) then?
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Because of year groups and end strenth, etc..
I got an ACCP payment less than 2 months before the Navy told me to GTFO. The classic "different pots of money" budgeting at work.
I got an ACCP payment less than 2 months before the Navy told me to GTFO. The classic "different pots of money" budgeting at work.
mataron said:
What MB said.
Let that be a lesson for you young'uns who like to carpe diem, and stuff. You literally have the world by the cajones. For each of you with an aviation contract for OCS, have an NROTC scholarship, or (eew) are even Academy pukes, realize that there are thousands - THOUSANDS - of people who would trade places with you in a heartbeat. And, at the same time, there are scores of dudes/dudettes every year who have "been there, done that" that are being laid off to make room for you.
Assuming that those qualified Aviators/NFOs are being booted at their 10 year mark or so, if you count the 4+ years of college prior to flight school (for officers with no broken time since high school), you're basically replacing people who spent the better part of a decade and a half of their lives - and have cost the taxpayers untold millions of dollars - to get to that point. For you college kids, that means that you're replacing people who have been working on Living the Dream since about the time you were learning how to read.
Keep that in mind when you make short-sighted decisions about skipping out on OCS to go to weddings, DORing because you're not having fun in Primary that week, dropping your pack in Advanced with a few flights to go (and thus getting attrited), or getting behind the wheel when you know damn well you shouldn't.