International flying

[Tom]

My understanding is that Gulfstream company pilots were conducting a cold soak flight. The cold soak flight is one of a series of test flights done before the delivery of a jet to it's operator. During this flight they do sound and temperature surveys of the cabin, make sure everything in the cabin and cockpit works properly, conduct SatCom registration, and conduct RVSM certification.

I made a new thread so I wouldn't threadjack.

Do many military planes deal with RVSM, HF reports and other sorts of international navigation issues? I guess the meat of my question is do many military planes deal with international flying similar to civilian flying? I can understand long range transports conducting similar operations, but I just wonder how much the military does their own thing. Mid air refueling, flying in formation, ect.

 

[Brett327]

I made a new thread so I wouldn't threadjack.

Do many military planes deal with RVSM, HF reports and other sorts of international navigation issues? I guess the meat of my question is do many military planes deal with international flying similar to civilian flying? I can understand long range transports conducting similar operations, but I just wonder how much the military does their own thing. Mid air refueling, flying in formation, ect.

Most of the long range over-water (I.E. transpac) stuff that TACAIR does is on the wing of a tanker and they're the one who has to deal with ATC and HF posit reports and what not. In my P-3 days, we had to do that stuff ourselves (humorously pictures Nav shouting into hand-held mic). But all the normal ATC stuff like RVSM (in many cases, no TCAS=no RVSM) and what not still applies to military flights. The Prowler is probably the only TACAIR jet with an HF and I know that Prowlers have done a tankerless translant before (Pugs?). If you're interested in getting into the details of tanker and other MARSA type flying, we can certainly go down that road as well.

Brett

 

[zab1001]

I guess the meat of my question is do many military planes deal with international flying similar to civilian flying?

For A to B repositioning flights, yes. PTAPTP all the way.

If there's something to be done tactically between A and B, you fly by the rules and file accordingly or as much as ops(EC) will permit.

The fun stuff comes when it's time to deal with customs on deck..."uh...yeah, we de-bugged with Resmithrin...the empty cans? uh....one sec..."

 

[Tom]

Most of the long range over-water (I.E. transpac) stuff that TACAIR does is on the wing of a tanker and they're the one who has to deal with ATC and HF posit reports and what not. In my P-3 days, we had to do that stuff ourselves (humorously pictures Nav shouting into hand-held mic). But all the normal ATC stuff like RVSM (in many cases, no TCAS=no RVSM) and what not still applies to military flights. The Prowler is probably the only TACAIR jet with an HF and I know that Prowlers have done a tankerless translant before (Pugs?). If you're interested in getting into the details of tanker and other MARSA type flying, we can certainly go down that road as well.

Brett

I cannot say I have heard of MARSA type flying. I do not want you to have to write a 5 page paper, but I would appreciate a synopsis.

Another question that just popped into my head is RNP. Is the military moving towards RNP 10, 5, 1, etc.? I know that much of the airspace in North America, Europe, the Atlantic and the Pacific are trying to move towards RNP stuff.

This made me think of another question. I believe I have heard that aircraft on carriers have INS/IRS. For the aircraft that do, how do they initialize on a moving ship?

 

[Brett327]

I cannot say I have heard of MARSA type flying. I do not want you to have to write a 5 page paper, but I would appreciate a synopsis.

Another question that just popped into my head is RNP. Is the military moving towards RNP 10, 5, 1, etc.? I know that much of the airspace in North America, Europe, the Atlantic and the Pacific are trying to move towards RNP stuff.

This made me think of another question. I believe I have heard that aircraft on carriers have INS/IRS. For the aircraft that do, how do they initialize on a moving ship?

MARSA means Military Accepts Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft. It basically relieves the controller from having to ensure separation during non-standard formation flying. So you'll tell the controller that when joining with a tanker or doing other maneuvers in a MOA, etc. I'm not that familiar with the exact standards that RNP dictates, but I'd be surprised if the military complies with it, as we already don't have TCAS for the most part. As far as alignments go, the ship has a cable (SINS) that you can plug into your jet to get a reference off of, but at least in my jet, the GPS aided INS systems can get a good alignment without it.

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

MARSA means Military Accepts Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft. ....

I did that one night while trying to get around a UAL 747 out over the pond going from Tokyo to Honolulu ... they wouldn't/couldn't climb ... and I was ready to go up, go FAST, an' BE SOMEBODY BE SOMEBODY BE SOMEBODY .... and beat them into Customs @ Honolulu.

.... sooooooooooooooooooooooo ... I called SFO ARINC and requested a "VFR CLIMB 10 DEGREES RIGHT OF TRACK, TO FL 370 ... WE WILL MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION FROM OUR TRAFFIC .... WILL REPORT BACK ON TRACK ON REACHING FLIGHT LEVEL ... "

.... silence ... silence ... "Standby Northwest" ... silence .... silence .... 3 or 4 minutes later San Francisco said: "O.K., Northwest .... ATC clears Northwest to climb to FL 370 ... maintain your own visual separation .... report back on course ... "

"WILCO" ... and up we went. My F/O (civilian trained) was going ... "What was that??? How are we gonna do that ... ???"

I said ..... "Trust me and watch this ... "

We climbed, keeping the UAL off my wing .... came back on course to HNL and reported same ....

Then UAL came up on common and said: "Northwest ... what was that.... ?"

I said ... "If you've flown in the military, you've probably heard of MARSA .... right??? Well, consider this a little airline variation .... let's call it NARSA .... Northwest Assumes Responsibility for Separation ... "

UAL said: "Well, I'll be darned .... "

I replied: " You usually are .... see you in the Customs line in Honolulu .... I'll be the one ahead of you ... "

 

[Brett327]

^^ That story makes my insides all warm and tingly.

Brett

 

[Tom]

Northwest: We're not happy until you're not happy.

I bet the passengers had a nice view too. "Hey honey, look at the beautiful suns...is that a plane?"

 

[A4sForever]

.....I bet the passengers had a nice view too. "Hey honey, look at the beautiful suns...is that a plane?"

Nighttime ... no sun .... just a little position light ... the pax can't see it .... and the passengers are ALL in the bag ... they don't see/know nuthin' ... they never did .... they never will .... it's better that way.

I guess you know a lot about the thread title ... "international flying" .... yes???

 

[Tom]

Yeah, I can imagine that getting the FO a little worked up seeing as he had no military experience. I have been told many times never to sit back and patiently watch a pilot do something right after saying, "Trust me and watch this..." This must have been before the days of CRM...

What do you say to a FO with two black eyes?

Nothing, you already told him twice.

 

[Brett327]

Yeah, I can imagine that getting the FO a little worked up seeing as he had no military experience. I have been told many times never to sit back and patiently watch a pilot do something right after saying, "Trust me and watch this..." This must have been before the days of CRM...

What do you say to a FO with two black eyes?

Nothing, you already told him twice.

Come on. That joke is best told with a woman as the butt. You disappoint me.

Brett

 

[PropStop]

In my P-3 days, we had to do that stuff ourselves (humorously pictures Nav shouting into hand-held mic).

Ah, I fondly remember those days. Once an O4 PPC (I was just the damp behind the ears 3P) asked if i wanted to do a few position reports to Saigon....er ....HoChiMin Radio. Since i had just finished listening to the nav give his report - hearing him yell into the mic from the back, over the roar of the props - I politely declined. It also meant i wouldn't have to listen to the damn HFs.

In the P-3 world long range flight is done just like the civilians do it, albeit without Cell Call :icon_rage which kinda blows (not having cell call blows, that is). We do fly "Due Regard" not infrequently, sometimes we do it because we get tired of asking permission to do things.

I can't answer your questions about RVSM as we never do it(we rarely fly at 290 or higher) . I have requested an RVSM waiver before (was even given it a few times). As for the RNP thing, haven't a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Fly Navy]

I can't answer your questions about RVSM as we never do it(we rarely fly at 290 or higher) . I have requested an RVSM waiver before (was even given it a few times). As for the RNP thing, haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Can a P-3 operate in the 30s? Honest question.

 

[PropStop]

Can a P-3 operate in the 30s? Honest question.

If you're really light, yes. I've been to 310 and i've heard of 330, but never higher.

Fat kids don't do well in thin air.

 

[Brett327]

Ah, I fondly remember those days. Once an O4 PPC (I was just the damp behind the ears 3P) asked if i wanted to do a few position reports to Saigon....er ....HoChiMin Radio. Since i had just finished listening to the nav give his report - hearing him yell into the mic from the back, over the roar of the props - I politely declined. It also meant i wouldn't have to listen to the damn HFs.

In the P-3 world long range flight is done just like the civilians do it, albeit without Cell Call :icon_rage which kinda blows (not having cell call blows, that is). We do fly "Due Regard" not infrequently, sometimes we do it because we get tired of asking permission to do things.

I can't answer your questions about RVSM as we never do it(we rarely fly at 290 or higher) . I have requested an RVSM waiver before (was even given it a few times). As for the RNP thing, haven't a clue what you're talking about.

I used to roam around on the long wire when we weren't spitting buoys and figure out what all the other stations were doing. I was the only AO in my squadron who got qual'd on the radar and I would go up to the Nav/Tacco stations and mess around with them. I'd do the posit reports and even talked to various folks in French when we were operating with them. If there are any TACCOs out there, how many of your IFTs type in the buoy load into the computer for you, eh?

Brett