International flying

[webmaster]

Tom, no harm no foul. I got caught up in your statement, and didn't see the humor in it... after your last post, I see the direction you were going in.

You just have to see it from our viewpoint sometimes, we post our experiences, whether aviation, leadership or naval career advice.... and we get discounted or shown a lack of respect for the time we take to post our comments or insights. There is a definable pecking order here, both rank and experience based. For those new guys out here, railing against the system, about the injustice of it all, well, tough shit, that is the way the world works, and more importantly, how naval aviation works. A good stick, a SME, WTI, the senior pilot/nfo, and your superiors get the respect they deserve. At pilot training, an FNG keeps his goddamn mouth shut and listens to the experience of the senior pilots, and puts him/herself in RECEIVE mode. Not to say that you aren't asking questions and PARTICIPATING, but you aren't telling them "well, back when I was flying the cessna..." or that he/she is full of shit... Now, when you get some salt, and are feeling your oats, game on in those discussions and in the aircraft.

The point is, all the high school students, college students and even you civair types, DON'T have the experiences or knowledge base, with the navy and marine corps aviation that we here on the forum do. I don't want to shut down the new guy/gals questions, and eagerness to become an aviator, and get those wings of gold, but disrespect and flagrant telling members that have been there, done that, that they are full of shit... well, that is just plain stupid, and just as in the wardroom/readyroom, they should be trashed accordingly.

I have thought alot on this recently, and have gotten PMs for and against the current AW's atmosphere, I honestly think it is "just right", and reflects what you will find when you get to the Fleet. We are damn fortunate to have a ballistic spread of aviators in various communities, plus VT instructors, posting on this site, passing on their experience and wisdom... for what? Nothing, maybe a little helping out the next generation of pilots/nfos.... but if only a few of you "listen" and care about what we post, vice the others we smack down that are "tools".. you know what? I will call that a success, and hope to share a beer with those that were successful in the O'club some day...

Tom, this by all means isn't directed at you, just brought up a few thoughts I had tangential to my misunderstanding your humor. You had a good post, I honestly don't have the time to read all of the posts and threads on this forum (thank god for mods!), and having been reading the same posts over and over for going on 8 years now, its definitely a testament that you asked something NEW to generate a good discussion.

Fly safe bro,

John

 

[Fly Navy]

Fantastic post, John.

 

[webmaster]

I have no idea what an 1801 is. .

An international flight plan. The bane of my current existance as a 3P "You want a FIR boundary penetration estimate, kiss my ass"... sigh, I wish.

As for the GPS in Navy aircraft, the question was valid. The environment I have experienced is going GPS-dependent and was curious how GPS was playing into military flying. I know that P-3's are old, but with the future of the P-8 I thought newer technology might be utilized. Hence, RNP.

I understand the question, but you haven't really wrapped your head around the type of flying we do (TACTICAL vs. AIRWAYS). For the most part, its not about point A to point B, and in many cases its navigating to join other units, ground forces, ships and aircraft. I am more concerned with ability to maintain positional accuracy onstation, a thousand miles from nowhere, and god forbid in a combat environment or all out war where I might NOT be able to count on GPS or any external fixing sources.

The only realm where we fit the same profile perse, concides with departure/arrival, or the inevitable repositions where we are flying the same airways. If we could get all the latest and greats gadgets, sure, I would take em, but I would RATHER have an upgrade to some of my tactical equipment first. I don't NEED it, the PAR/ILS combo, and my non digital steam gauges are good enough for me to land in mins.

For discussions sake, when, and a long time from now, the P8 arrives, it will bring the latest and greatest, but it is only one platform amongst many, it would hardly be a capability (with respect to GPS) that would be Fleet wide.

 

[Tom]

Ahhh, now I understand your previous response. I didn't think of miltary flying in comparison to airway flying. Thanks for the insight.

 

[A4sForever]

...Here's some research on CRM which was deleted by the Mod's last time I post it: .....yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda ... CRM should be incorporated into all aspects of Korean Air's operation....

Yeah ... but you see ... the post is still as long and boring as the original ... maybe that's why it was deleted??? By the way ... I didn't delete it ...

But complaining about a lack of CRM at Korean Air is like complaining about the fact you get wet when you stand out in the rain. You're gonna' get wet when you do that --- no matter what. You're not gonna' have any "real" CRM @ Korean Air ... no matter what.

CRM @ KAL -- or more specifically the lack thereof -- is symptomatic of Korean society as a whole. Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Filipino, pick one ..... THEY'RE ALL LIKE THAT ... The airline is just a microcosm of their societies and cultures as a whole.

That's one of the reason's that I'll never fly an Asian/Oriental airline -- unless there is no other alternative and they're the last flight outta' town ....

 

[A4sForever]

I'm not a fan of smiley’s and my sarcasms didn't translate.

1. From prior experience I've learned it is pointless to attempt to defend myself to this crowd.

2. I thought this thread would die and end of story, but alas...

1. Then you have encountered an Air Warriors "learning opportunity" and you have mastered it. Well done ....

2. Ain't gonna happen ... not in our lifetime.

You are pardoned .... smiley ....

 

[Flash]

Some of the more interesting discussions I have heard on ATC freqs were right off Hong Kong when we were Due Regard. Getting our butts chewed for blowing through all of the airways while not under their control, we were squawking and at VFR altitudes, was always pretty interesting. It helped that we got chewed out several times by the sexiest voice I have ever heard on the radio, a husky Chinese voice speaking British accented English.......ohhhhhh, very nice........

As for the worst controllers, some of the Japanese ones were really bad. There were many times we just gave up and went VFR in the 200's around Iwakuni. That and a really bad PAR into Misawa during a snowstorm did nothing reinforce my faith in them either (Brett, Bucket was flying which made things worse ). I was always happy to hear an American voice on the radio, even if it was in the UAE occasionally!

 

[zippy]

As for the new GPS toys.... YAWN... Tom, do you really think that the Navy is going to upgrade all our aircraft to that standard? Hell no, and not in the P3 community, I am still waiting for a the autopilot... Heck, our P3 GPS isn't certified, and routinely drops satellites in a turn. But you know what? I have two really really nice inertials, a NAV to plug and chug and back flight up on takeoffs and approaches into mins, and PAR/ILS capabilities to get back to the field through shitty weather.

Actually, guess what VX was showing off at 30 a month or so ago... yep- a new INS/GPS toy that will be certified for nav and allow us (not sure how many planes are actually getting it) to shoot coupled approaches. First plane will be modded in a few months. As for a new autopilot, I think theres a better chance of the tube rats getting their own rack.

 

[Brett327]

Some of the more interesting discussions I have heard on ATC freqs were right off Hong Kong when we were Due Regard. Getting our butts chewed for blowing through all of the airways while not under their control, we were squawking and at VFR altitudes, was always pretty interesting. It helped that we got chewed out several times by the sexiest voice I have ever heard on the radio, a husky Chinese voice speaking British accented English.......ohhhhhh, very nice........

As for the worst controllers, some of the Japanese ones were really bad. There were many times we just gave up and went VFR in the 200's around Iwakuni. That and a really bad PAR into Misawa during a snowstorm did nothing reinforce my faith in them either (Brett, Bucket was flying which made things worse ). I was always happy to hear an American voice on the radio, even if it was in the UAE occasionally!

I don't know if you did an OSW rotation, but the Asian controllers sounded like Rhodes Scholars compared to the Saudi corridor "controllers." Seems like their technique was pretty standardized, which generally consisted of waiting until the 4th or 5th call to respond, then position their mics right in front of the radio speaker so as to ensure that their entire transmission was obliterated by a cacophony of feedback. After not understanding your report or request after the 3rd try, the best option was to just tell them what you were doing (more for the others on freq) and ignore their protestations.

Brett

 

[Flash]

I don't know if you did an OSW rotation, but the Asian controllers sounded like Rhodes Scholars compared to the Saudi corridor "controllers." Seems like their technique was pretty standardized, which generally consisted of waiting until the 4th or 5th call to respond, then position their mics right in front of the radio speaker so as to ensure that their entire transmission was obliterated by a cacophony of feedback. After not understanding your report or request after the 3rd try, the best option was to just tell them what you were doing (more for the others on freq) and ignore their protestations.

Brett

I spent plenty of time in the Gulf but did not have that many problems with the guys there, most of the ones that we talked to seemed to be British. We did have some real idiots but I seemd to run into a lot more of them in the Far East. Maybe I just understood the Mid-East accent better than the Asian ones.......

 

[HAL Pilot]

I think theres a better chance of the tube rats getting their own rack.

I had my own rack - whichever one I crawled into first.

Racks were first come, first serve in both my squadrons for flight of 8 hours or less. If a pilot or FE on one of these flights claimed he needed a rack or he would be unsafe to fly, he got it - no questions asked. But he quickly found out during post flight that the next squadron training day, he got to brief all the air crew on how to obtain proper crew rest before a flight. If the flight was 8+, then the pilot or FE got it no questions asked - free & clear.

 

[A4sForever]

.....If the flight was 8+, then the pilot or FE got (a rack) no questions asked - free & clear.

Same on the Whale, with one minor change ... it took us 12 hours to rate a bunk. Sooooooooooooo ..... :sleep_125.... in the seat.

 

[Brett327]

I had my own rack - whichever one I crawled into first.

Racks were first come, first serve in both my squadrons for flight of 8 hours or less. If a pilot or FE on one of these flights claimed he needed a rack or he would be unsafe to fly, he got it - no questions asked. But he quickly found out during post flight that the next squadron training day, he got to brief all the air crew on how to obtain proper crew rest before a flight. If the flight was 8+, then the pilot or FE got it no questions asked - free & clear.

I've got a nice warm sleeping bag that's logged an easy 1000 P-3 hours and a hammock I'd sometimes string up over the P-chutes. Comfort and style.

Brett

 

[H60Gunner]

AO's

I've got a nice warm sleeping bag that's logged an easy 1000 P-3 hours and a hammock I'd sometimes string up over the P-chutes. Comfort and style.

Brett

Crazy bass turds all of ya! 'Course the floor under SS1/2 is heated. The AO on my crew did the hammock over the P-chutes thing too. I was disappointed when they removed the IFO from the crew, ruined the whole "A P-3 crew can fly to any base in the world and be self sufficient" concept. Loading weps without an AO around is just weird!
IYAOYAS!

 

[PropStop]

I had my own rack - whichever one I crawled into first.

Racks were first come, first serve in both my squadrons for flight of 8 hours or less...

I bypass the whole rack thing and just sleep in my seat.